Does anyone really judge a child by their name these days ?

[muscatmama]

I was idly browsing the internet for mention of the name that we are strongly considering for our soon-to- be born 3rd child and I was really surprised at how aggressively some people seem to dislike some names (this one in particular it seems) I know it's the internet, there are no boundaries, trolling is rife etc - but I really have never had such a strong reaction to any name - I just tend to think 'not my cup of tea' and judging by the names in my DS and DD's classes - anything goes really. I was also surprised by the amount of people, including teachers, who suggested that a child would be bullied because of their name. Surely the problem is with the bullies and not the name? What do people think - is giving your child a name that isn't in the Top 100 really doing them such a great disservice?

A lot of people on MN have a real disdain for 'foreign' names. They dress it up as 'oh but such a name will hold your child back in Tunbridge Wells'. What they're really thinking it 'Oh dear, how foreign. Not a patch on Harry or Emily'.

That only works, Noble, if the people talking about the names aren't foreign themselves.

What do you think about the research that shows that what people are named affect how people treat them?

We all know people respond to names be that for good, bad, or meh. But the judgements on MN often come from a place of snobbery.

'That foreign name will cause a lot of problems' = all names even if they’re not English should obey English spelling rules.
'It’s a naughty boy’s name' = far too working class.

Don’t call you kid Moonunit Kazoo or Princess Tinkerbell, anyone can see that will lead to a life of headaches. But so often on MN the ‘oh dear, it doesn’t pass the high court judge test’ simply means ‘it simply isn’t MC English enough’.

I'm still lost that someone would ignore a CV from Kellie but happily pick up one from Katherine.

I just don't believe it to be honest.

Here is a summary of one piece of research on the impact of ethnic-sounding names on the likelihood a CV will be sifted in. There are similar studies from a number of different countries on the impact.

Any reason to think people's unconscious biases are only triggered by race, and not class - particularly given the evidence of unconscious bias among teachers that is related to names?

So what's your solution? Ahmed Khan's parents change his name to John Brown? Agnieszka Nowak's parents change her name to Emily Smith?

All working class kids be given names like Rupert and Fenella?

If only High Court judge Gary Hickinbottom had a more high court judge like name.....

I don't have one. The world is fucked and I don't claim to be able to fix it. Anonymous job applications as many workplaces now insist on is a helpful start.

Hold that. Being aware of the situation is a helpful start.

But people refusing to believe it happens is pretty stupid. And yes, I'll admit I took it into consideration when naming my own kids, because their long-term interests matter more to me than having my nationality and the 'norms' for names where I come from, or my own aesthetic taste.

You misunderstand me. I refuse to believe that anyone who doesn't judge based on a name isn't an idiot themselves :) and I don't worry about idiots.

My posh name has caused me more problems to be honest.

And that's fine. That was your decision. Doesn’t mean other people’s naming criteria is wrong. Whether my kids’ names sounded middle class enough for middle England was not high on my list of concerns.

And that's fine. That was your decision. Doesn’t mean other people’s naming criteria is wrong

I didn't say it was.

Jessica - unfortunately, being an idiot doesn't preclude someone from being on a hiring panel or teaching your kid. Social mobility in this country is unfortunately a lot more problematic than just grammar school/not grammar school.

In particular there seem to be a significant number of teachers who seem predisposed to think that Jayden will be trouble while Thomas won't. Very difficult not to let that bias transfer to how they approach the kids.

Of course people judge. Both on MN and in the real world.

There have been studies showing that the same CV with different names on will have a different response. Different names have different associations with class, race, educational background. And some people judge on those things.

Perhaps it shouldn't be like this, but it is. Like many other things in life.

Perhaps it shouldn't be like this

Perhaps??

I don't think that Brits judge foreign names. We consciously or unconsciously make class judgements about 'British' names but foreign names are not easy to classify so are exempt from that judgement imo. Unless it is a name that is deemed to be made up and not a real name. Usually this judgement is reserved for Americans . Am guilty of this myself when my sil wanted to choose a place name for her child but with a made up different spelling. I know it is snotty but I couldn't help it.

When parents choose classic names like James or William or Charlotte they are doing so in the knowledge that it will make their child impossible to categorise solely on the basis of name. These names cross over all classes, whereas it is a fact of life that Wayne is more likely to be working class and Sebastian isn't. We are very class focussed as a nation so names are loaded.

The upper classes can get away with names that are quirky or really unusual. Wealth is a great insulator from judgement and provides the ability to do what you want and not be overly affected by the opinions of others. When poor people choose names outside of the norm, it is viewed as chavvy. Unfair but true.

I haven't posted on MN for years and really should have thought about the title my post a little longer - although I guess the general answer to my question is 'we judge the parents and then the child when they become an adult'. Here is a little more background to my post. Whilst reading up on this particular name on a few sites- but primarily MN - amongst the reactions were things like 'no,no, hideous,awful name', 'why would you do that- it's child abuse', 'your child will hate you and be bullied' and 'my heart is sinking- why oh why' . I suppose what I really wanted to know was - do people really have that extreme reaction when the child is standing in front of them and they are told their name. It was more of a slightly bemused question from a very pregnant woman with an aching pelvis and too much time on her hands!! My daughter's name apparently rhymes with 'incest' according to several MN posters, is hard for some to spell the first time and foreign- but that didn't stop me! I doubt I'll be put off this time either!

Honestly, I do think you have to take account of the country in which your child is being raised and maybe not pick a name that sounds like something rude or funny to people in that country. My dh has a foreign middle name that he avoids telling anyone because it sounds like an insult to British ears. Absolutely his mother's right to name him as she saw fit but she didn't think through potential embarrassment for dh as a kid.

Dramatic understatement squoosh

Obviously it shouldn't be like this.

I do think that mostly people will be polite once a child with any given name is standing right in front of them, but that won't help with CVs being judged in future years. Also when pg everyone thinks they are entitled to share their opinion on your name choices whether you have asked or not.
If you do ask though, then you shouldn't be surprised to get people's completely honest, sometimes brutally frank opinions. Personally I'd want to know what people really think, even if I did choose to ignore them.

I know what you mean Aderyn2016!! That's why we avoided telling anyone- I learnt that with my eldest daughter! It's still not a regularly used name- but in some ridiculous Daily Mail article it was one of the names most likely to succeed at university- go figure! As for spelling- my very English surname is constantly misspelt- as is my son's and my middle names - Anthony and Frances!

My brother's name is Antony. People always spell it with an h in the middle. Do they leave out the h in your son's name?

If I met a child called Jessica I would think, meh nothing much really. 'Normal' name. If I was to then meet a Jesikka (like 3 doors up) I would judge her parents (for all of a few seconds) and think, would they not have thought through their 'unique' spelling. If I sat and honestly was asked if I thought these people were working class or middle class due only to this name I would probably go with working class. People may not like that but there you go. The mother goes mad about it too, like people should instantly know how to spell it.

Aderyn2016- sometimes- which is right of course - but not his name. We've also had Antoni, Anthoni. It doesn't really bother me as it's his middle name- I just expect to have to correct it. My name can be with a Y or an IE. I would spend a lot of time being upset if I got upset about how at times people misspell it. Including some of my close friends . . . !!!

I've looked through a thousand CVs in my time. I'm not trying to sound worthy but the name of the applicant barely registers with me. I'm just dying to look at their previous positions and sift through all the chaff.

Overly long cover letters, typos and poorly constructed CVs do make me gnash my teeth however.

Being scathing about a name that isn't traditional is nonsense. Traditions haven't existed for eternity, when they were first introduced I'm sure some people found them odd.
Names carry different connotations country to country. My name is quite posh in the UK, in the Netherlands it's really trashy, for example. Snobbery becomes meaningless outside a local area really.
Names used for brands like Ariel and Flora it doesn't matter about - the brand will have changed by the time the kid is at school and who knows? The 'Olivia' tampon range may be just round the corner. Same with celebrity associations.
The only thing I'd worry about when choosing a name is - is there a double entendre when put with the surname either in initials or full?
The teachers at one school I worked at were bitching about a girl's name and how terrible names were getting 'nowadays' - the child's name was a Victorian short version of a classic Greek name. There will always be someone who makes a stupid comment. Call them what you want.

In the case of foreign sounding names I believe the judgement is based on the first name + surname
Which fails to take into account people who have mixed heritage, or those from Caribbean countries or African Americans (for example) whose own surnames were taken away in favour of British (Spanish, Dutch, etc.) surnames.

I don't think that Brits judge foreign names.
I wish this were true. I worked in admin at a recruitment company (in London) where they would literally snort and throw CVs with foreign-sounding names in the bin (they also used to ask if the person calling had an accent and then refuse the call if they did ). And this was only about 3-4 years ago. Some might consider this an extreme example, but I know a lot of people in similar industries who have told me the same sort of things happen.

Those saying "well you might not like it but it happens", so should we just racism and classism? Change ourselves so that racists and snobs can be comfortable with us? They are the ones that need changing, not the other way round. If that means my children won't get to work for certain organisations good. Why would those organisations deserve their hard work or skills if they can't accept them for who they are?