Erin Patterson - We the members of the MN jury find the defendant Guilty or Not Guilty?

[Dustyblue]

Well here we are, after 2 years of head-scratching speculation and many weeks of trial detail-thrashing. It looks like the Judge will give his directions to the jury on Tuesday, after which they'll be sequestered in a local motel (I do not envy them this) to reach a verdict.

Clearly we're not privy to every last piece of evidence shown at the trial, but those of us who've been following closely will surely have formed an opinion one war or the other.

So, I ask you- if you were on the jury- what would your verdict be?

She seems like someone who enjoys being alone pissing about on a computer tbh, and she still gets to do that 🤷‍♀️

She isn’t in the Murray unit which is less restrictive but the Gordon unit, and she is even more restricted than the other inmates in that as she can’t come into contact with anyone else.

Yes, as I said, she was moved into a more restricted unit because she was accused of tampering with food and attempting to poison another inmate.

But when in the other unit, where she encountered any number of other women she might have befriended, she treated people like dirt. She wasn't expecting to stay all that long, as she was convinced she'd get off the charges. Perhaps she should have thought this through a little more.

You've been bleeding all over this thread with your insistence she is suffering intensely being deprived of conversation. But you are just projecting your own more extroverted needs onto her.

Who knows where she will be housed within this prison once sentenced, anyway.

It is nothing to do with introverted or extroverted. Or personal preference. Long term solitary confident it’s considered by some as cruel and unusual punishment and akin to torture.

I hope she is locked up a long time as I don’t think she will ever be safe. But I don’t agree with state sanctioned cruel punishments. B regardless of who the prisoner is.

Best place for her for now is solitary. She has not proven that she can interract normally with other inmates. She may at some point be allowed to mingle and gradually may earn the privilege of being with others. Until she does, quite right that she is isolated. For now.

It is to do with your projection. Nothing in EP's prior behaviour suggests she is longing to use that intercom.

I am not up on the ins and outs of the Victorian prison system. But when you commit a serious crime like that it is pretty standard to be placed in maximum security. She would be still in the standard protection wing, as I understand it, if she hadn't been thought to have been plotting to poison other inmates.

Anyway, back to the actual victims. It was sad to read about Simon's statement regarding his children. From what I heard, they were staunch believers in their mother's innocence throughout the trial. Apart from everything else they have to live with - losing her, and losing their grandparents, as well as Heather, losing their old home and life - they now have to somehow learn to accept she actually did this, or have their realities continue to be warped by believing in her.

She gets to have books, a tv, all her crochet materials and a hair straightener for God's sake.

That would be one hell of a weapon if she wasn't confined.

If I went to prison, I think I'd want to make 'friends' with the rest of them. Or at least a couple of them. Erin has done the opposite and deliberately put her fellow inmates offside.

@JamesWebbSpaceTelescope I take it you're not a fan of capital punishment? Neither am I, but I don't think Erin is suffering from 'cruel & unusual' punishment. Her victims copped that.

I wonder if she has lego?

To me this is the worst part in all this. Those kids are going to need A LOT of psych counselling to even begin to come to terms with this.

Should they visit their Mum in prison? Would that help them or damage them further?

My own DS9 was devastated when his Grandpa (my Dad) died last year. At least I could tell him Grandpa died because he was sick and the doctors couldn't make him better.

Those poor children, I feel sick for them.

The thing about her current situation is that she isn’t in solitary. She’s in the protection wing and even then, her movements are restricted. This is different to solitary confinement. The prison staff sound like they’re doing to give her access to amenities while prioritising her safety (safety comes first) and working within their staffing shortages.

The situation is entirely of her own making, not just because she did the crime, but she’s also pissed off other prisoners, making her a potential target of violence. I imagine she came in, not only thinking she’d get off, but that she’s better than your average prisoner with their garden variety stealing/drugs/assault charges, minimal education and low socio-economic background. Going to prison and making it obvious that you look down on your fellow inmates is not the way to go if you want your time inside to be trouble-free.

Back to the actual victims of crime, the victim impact statements were devastating. I also keep wondering about the reference to Simon as her estranged husband. Is he going to get around to divorcing her when the dust has settled?

@JamesWebbSpaceTelescope It is nothing to do with introverted or extroverted. Or personal preference. Long term solitary confident it’s considered by some as cruel and unusual punishment and akin to torture. I hope she is locked up a long time as I don’t think she will ever be safe. But I don’t agree with state sanctioned cruel punishments. B regardless of who the prisoner is.

It’s not being done as a ‘state sanctioned cruel punishment though’. It’s being done for her own benefit to keep her safe. The other alternative would be to release her into the general population, or even a restricted sub-population, to continue to piss off everyone she comes across, and she will suffer the consequences of that (if prisoners want to do something to someone they WILL find a way).

So, @JamesWebbSpaceTelescope, what’s your brilliant solution?

He tells the court he offers Patterson forgiveness for the harm she caused him, but he has no right to forgive her for the other deaths she caused.
"I bear her no ill will. My prayer for her is that she will use her time in jail wisely to become a better person," he says.
"I am no longer Erin Patterson's victim, and she has become the victim of my kindness."

I'm not so sure this paints him in a good light. The forgiveness of EP for her harm is spot on but saying she is a "victim of his kindness" is preening self-regard, self-congratulatory, and profoundly un-Christian.

I was taken aback by what he said and assumed he was mangling Proverbs 25 21-22 "heaping coals of fire" on an enemy's head by showing them mercy and charity. The metaphor works by the enemy becoming remorseful and changing their ways.

Odd, considering he is a pastor.

I agree with @JamesWebbSpaceTelescope. She deserves to be in prison but isolation for decades is torture.

I also have NFI what a fair sentence would look like for her, I just don't think isolation is fair.

She's only in 'isolation' due to her own behaviour when they let her mix with the others.

I agree that if isolation means total sensory deprivation, perhaps that would be akin to torture.

But this isn't the case. She would be allowed out if she behaved herself.

On another topic- apparently the food in prison is terrible. Loads of cheap carbohydrates and little protein or fresh produce. She was overweight when she went in- she'll stack it on now.

At the end of the day- she is a mass murderer. The whole point is to deprive her of her liberty.

No tears for her here. She can crochet and read books & maybe go work in the prison library, if she earns that privilege.

She's in isolation due to the threats from other inmates. She's apparently being a dick as well but it's not the reason she is in isolation.

I also have NFI what a fair sentence would look like for her, I just don't think isolation is fair

Okay, so to be ‘fair’, let her out of protective custody. Not going to end well, but will be ‘fair’. Not sure I understand the reasoning behind that?

The reality is she has essentially chosen protective custody. When you are a rude dickhead to the rest of the prison population, they don’t take kindly to it, and that’s where you are put for your own safety. The alternative would be to remove her, give her general prison freedoms and let her take her chances with her behaviour. Short of building a dedicated prison just for her, that’s pretty much what you are left with. The guards will have the additional job of being ‘pals’ with her, given lack of other inmates, as she doesn’t get along with others seemingly. Simply, you can’t reorganise and run a prison system around one individual because they are being difficult.

Let him say what he wants. I don't get the preening self regard thing... Poor guy

I'm not sure what people expect. She is in her own unit, with a little yard. She has access to the prison chaplain if she wants a chat, but she hasn't bothered. She has a neighbour who has an adjoining yard, but neither woman has bothered to engage with the other.

She's in isolation due to the threats from other inmates. She's apparently being a dick as well but it's not the reason she is in isolation.

Well, obviously. The point about her being a rude, arrogant, unpleasant dick is that she has shown no desire to engage with anyone in the prison, and when she encounters others she does not avail herself of the opportunity to have a chat, she's rude and unpleasant. It's a fantasy that she is yearning for a better prison social life.

Jesus.

Here’s voice actors reading out some of the victim impact statements.

@echt I’ve heard similar wording used in other victim statements. That the victim of crime chooses to no longer be the victim and offers forgiveness to the offender. Doing so is a kind act. Kind to the victim themself by freeing themself through forgiveness. Kind to the offender because they don’t deserve forgiveness. I don’t know any bible verses so it all made sense to me.

@JamesWebbSpaceTelescope If you’re so worried about Patterson then perhaps you can write to her with an offer of being her penpal. Let us know how that goes.

I agree. Who knows what health conditions he suffers everyday. The mental torture. He just wants to take the victim label away and turn it around.

Her conviction doesn't mean it resulted in her immediate isolation did it? She was on remand for a couple of years anyway and showed her colours then. There was obviously a pattern of behaviour that led to the decision to isolate her and that was acted upon by the prison authorities who have far more experience of dealing with inmates than we do, for the good of the entire prison population including staff.

Let us not forget the victims and the family. What an evil warped woman she is, I doubt she has much to redeem her.

Don't see anyone wringing their hands about the social conditions of the woman in the cell next to EP, Momena Shoma. Or the many men across the country in far worse jails, in worse cells, without private yards or the other amenities Erin has, doing similar isolated cell hours for full life sentences.

What made you like this? I can't imagine anyone judging what the poor man said but here you are.

Why on earth shouldn't I have an opinion about what he said?

I agree his situation is pitiful beyond belief, but he had time to prepare what he said, he is a pastor and what he said was unChristian.