The mushroom poisoning in Vic.... I am gripped - Part 2

[ImustLearn2Cook]

Hi everyone, Aussie Mumsnetter here. As some have requested a new thread be started by an Aussie I decided to do it.

I am still gripped by this case and like many, I am awaiting updates of new information.

Will a matching donor for a liver for Ian be found soon? I hope he makes a full recovery.

Will he be able to shed new light on the lunch they all shared?

And of course is she guilty of deliberately poisoning them or was it an innocent mistake?

She lies like a toddler with chocolate all over her face

Arf.

Actually, that was precisely my point. The medical evidence showed EP wasn't sick with liver failure etc. Which we already knew. I don't understand what you are criticising. Yes I agree the bloodwork is different between EP and the others.

I agree with your analysis that there is a lot that points to her guilt. However the question is whether it goes beyond reasonable doubt vs a tragic error plus panic. And we haven't heard the defence case yet.

The effects of death caps depend on quantity eaten and your body's reaction. Not everyone needs a liver transplant or dies for example this person ate two large deathcap mushrooms minus the stalks (50 grams) and survived with deranged liver tests which recovered with no transplant.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1016/j.wem.2015.08.002?url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori:rid:crossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub%20%200pubmed

I acknowledge EP had normal liver tests. Different people have different liver capacity (genetic plus environmental factors) which means different reactions to the same toxin. For example the same dose per kg of a moderate paracetamol overdose can cause large or small or no liver damage depending on the person. However a huge paracetamol overdose (and a huge death cap mushroom dose) will cause liver failure in everyone. So I agree EP not having deranged liver tests is important but it's just one part of the picture. Does it go beyond reasonable doubt? I don't think so personally but we haven't heard everything yet.

Re scraping off mushrooms I can only see it reported that this is what the doctors (I think just one doctor) recorded that EP told them. I know that sometimes doctors can get slightly the wrong meaning compared to what patients are trying to say, so it would be interesting whether Ep declares herself that she did scrape off the mushrooms. Or whether her own story is she served the meat but no mushrooms had been in contact. Or she could have said she scraped them off and this could have been a lie to the doctor.

I agree this is a really important point. And as I understand it, it wasn't that she couldn't stop them. She spoke to the police on the phone whilst she was with the doctor at the hospital and she gave the police specific directions to allow them to enter her house and get to the bin and leftovers.

For those that are sure of her guilt I'd be interested in why you think she did this?

I acknowledge EP had normal liver tests. Different people have different liver capacity (genetic plus environmental factors) which means different reactions to the same toxin.

No, I'm sorry, but it doesn't work like that. To have totally normal LFTs, she cannot have come into contact with a skerrick of Death Caps.

This point was made quite clearly during the evidence today:

Dr Varuna Ruggoo, another medical practitioner working at Monash Health, is the next witness in the box.

She was an emergency physician at the emergency department in the days following the lunch, and was involved in the care of Erin Patterson on August 1.

Dr Ruggoo says Erin had received IV fluids throughout the night, as well as the drug NAC for perceived liver issues.

A liver function test found Erin's liver health to be "all within normal limits", she says.

At 10:14am, a review found her blood tests and vital signs showed no sign of liver toxicity, and that Erin was able to be discharged.

Dr Ruggoo tells the court that notes from Dr Muldoon had indicated that Erin was not suffering from amanita phalloides — death cap mushroom — poisoning.

"She wrote in her notes that there was no concern about that type of poisoning," Dr Ruggoo says.

Not suffering from deathcap poisoning is a true statement.

That doesn't mean she hadn't been exposed.

I don't think we have a lot of evidence about people exposed to a 'skerrick' (good word!) of Dc mushrooms who had no major ill effects as these people wouldn't come to medical attention or get written up in scientific papers.

If you do know of evidence that would be great to see the links!

That doesn't mean she hadn't been exposed.

What kind of a doctor are you that you don't understand the results of LFTs? It wasn't only those that were completely normal. All her bloodwork was completely normal.

Everything was normal.

Erin Patterson's respiratory rate, peripheral pulse rate, blood pressure, temperature were all within a normal range.

"Did you deem her fit for discharge?" Ms Lenthall asks.

"I did," Dr Ruggoo says.

And as I explained above I still don't believe that proves the case beyond reasonable doubt. It's ok to disagree!

Can I point out your tone is unnecessarily confrontational. Would appreciate it if things could be kept courteous thanks.

Posting the same point is not really getting us anywhere. Yes she didn't have poisoning (though exposure is debated) and she was well enough for discharge.

My tone is incredulous. Sorry if it reads as confrontational.

Apology accepted, thanks.

I think we don't know how much EP ate of her lunch. Ian W said she was eating some of it but couldn't remember how much.

I may well change my opinion based on what gets presented by the defence! But it's interesting the prosecution case doesn't seem that strong.

Defence and prosecution agreed in opening statements that EP had foraged DC mushrooms and that the guests were poisoned by Dc mushrooms. So I do feel a lot of the evidence isn't bringing us much forward from there.

Exposure is not debatable. It is one of the deadliest poisons on the planet, and any exposure would leave a trace - that would be reflected in at least some parts of her bloodwork, especially LFTs. Therefore, there was no exposure.

Do you think they would have just sent her home if they saw any chance she had actually been exposed to amanita phalloides, when all the others were in the throes of dying hideously? (Rhetorical question.)

That point was made repeatedly today, and I noticed the defence did not cross-examine the expert medical witnesses at all.

Your first paragraph is very certain. Do you have some evidence to back this up given as I said medical reports are not generally written about people who eat a tiny amount of a poison and are totally ok? I mean I think it's a very reasonable point that the fact her LFTs (liver tests) were normal makes it less likely that she ingested DC, and therefore increases her chance of guilt, I am just pointing out the beyond reasonable doubt standard.

Re murder vs manslaughter I guess this is what the opening statement is referencing - anyone know?

'Defence barrister Colin Mandy SC
says at this stage of the trial, he's limited with what he can say and the extent to which he can argue with Ms Rogers's openings.
That's for legal reasons, he says, and that his time to forcefully put his case will come at the end once all the evidence has come out.'

As stated in evidence today:

Dr Muldoon says Erin told her she'd bought mushrooms for the dish from an Asian grocery in Oakleigh or Glen Waverley and said she didn't have the packet anymore.

Dr Muldoon is asked if she made observations about Erin's health during that meeting and she says yes.

"She had some chapped lips but otherwise looked well," she says.

She confirms blood test results were all normal and remained that way the following day.

Dr Muldoon says there was no evidence of amanita mushroom poisoning and no sign of any other toxic substance being consumed.

.... and your point (which expands or adds to previous points rather than repeating your opinion....) is...... ?

Re your rhetorical Qs... They didn't send her home they admitted EP and gave IV fluids and NAC which is a treatment for liver dysfunction (can be given before liver toxicity develops to reduce the chance of it developing)

They sent her home after the precautionary IV fluids and NAC. As I posted above:

Dr Ruggoo says Erin had received IV fluids throughout the night, as well as the drug NAC for perceived liver issues.

A liver function test found Erin's liver health to be "all within normal limits", she says.

At 10:14am, a review found her blood tests and vital signs showed no sign of liver toxicity, and that Erin was able to be discharged.

I think there’s some confusion in the reporting as to whether the leftovers showed traces of death caps.
I’m pretty sure they didn’t I.e they were the leftovers of the one she ate herself and therefore knew it was ok for the police to find that one.
The contaminated leftovers and Simon’s one were disposed of somewhere else somehow before she went to the hospital.

There were definitely traces of death caps in the dehydrator though and if she’d bought ready dried ones from the Asian shop she wouldn’t have had to dehydrate them so it’s clear that she did put death caps in there herself that she’d foraged for. That’s probably why the defence aren’t contesting that she foraged them

I was responding to what you posted here:

Your first paragraph is very certain. Do you have some evidence to back this up given as I said medical reports are not generally written about people who eat a tiny amount of a poison and are totally ok?

I mean, the statements of the various doctors and nurses who treated and/or questioned Erin at a number of hospitals is all pretty clear, and unanimous that she was not unwell, that she had not imbibed any DCs, and also that she did not show any signs whatsoever of vomiting or diarrhea at any time.

I think there’s some confusion in the reporting as to whether the leftovers showed traces of death caps.

Yes, some initially reported there were traces and others that there weren't. I think that was cleared up today - currently, they are saying no traces - but perhaps there will be more clarity on that as the toxicologists give their forensic findings?

I think she bolted home from the hospital and set a few things up before she went back. She certainly knew exactly where to direct the cop to find it - right at the bottom of the red bin.

She definitely seemed to be acting oddly already before all this when she talked about putting dried mushrooms in brownies, without telling the people who were eating them she had done it, doing blind tasting tests and so on. Just really strange behaviour.

What's also odd is, unless those FB friends had their timelines mixed up, she was supposedly talking about dehydrating mushrooms and sneaking them into brownies in March - before she actually bought the dehydrator on April 28, (coincidentally the afternoon after she'd visited the first notified DC mushroom sighting).

Confrontational tone! 😭 I am also incredulous, just nodding along to all of velvet's posts

I don't know if it's "confrontational" to ask for clarification here, perhaps? I am just flabbergasted that any sort of medical doctor would be unfamiliar with LFTs, or their interpretation.

Still, a bit curious about the answer to this question...

I'm not unfamiliar with LFTs and their interpretation. I feel I've clarified my reasoning fairly extensively. What exactly is it you don't understand or wanted clarification on?