The mushroom poisoning in Vic.... I am gripped - Part 2

[ImustLearn2Cook]

Hi everyone, Aussie Mumsnetter here. As some have requested a new thread be started by an Aussie I decided to do it.

I am still gripped by this case and like many, I am awaiting updates of new information.

Will a matching donor for a liver for Ian be found soon? I hope he makes a full recovery.

Will he be able to shed new light on the lunch they all shared?

And of course is she guilty of deliberately poisoning them or was it an innocent mistake?

thanks for reproducing all of that

And that's not all of it! There is a ton more medical evidence I could quote.

And we are only three days of evidence-giving, effectively, with Friday and Tuesday being pretty well half days, into the trial.

It’s more the fact that she doesn’t appear to have cared whether these poor people lived or died. The lack of “oh my god, it might have been the mushrooms” to help the hospital figure out what was wrong, rather than them having to piece it all together is what does it for me. No average person, if they had made such a hideous mistake, could stand by and be silent surely?
I appreciate I may have missed a statement along those lines, but I’m assuming they figured the mushrooms out because of the dish they were served and symptoms rather than anything she said once people became ill.

My DC are similar ages and if I told them I was desperate for the loo/ had diarrhoea/ had been to the loo 10 times they would very likely report that when questioned, based on what I’d said rather than actual evidence of being ill.

Similar to the going to the hospital and self reporting having been ill, I think they only saw evidence of her being dehydrated? If DCM were the cause, surely they’d have seen other markers?

Just because we can’t think of a motive it doesn’t mean that there wasn’t one. Who knows what goes on in people’s minds? It sounds like a complicated history between them.

Yeah, there’s definitely a lot going on inside her and she is far from average. In Scotland they have the concept of « wicked recklessness « in relation to mens rea… I’m not up to date on recent developments in criminal law but it’s certainly an interesting notion in terms of describing a psychological state.

It probably does point more towards murder. And so if the standard of proof was "balance of probabilities" then she'd extremely likely be found guilty. But it's "beyond reasonable doubt"- a much higher standard. While there are those on this thread alone who are convinced beyond any doubt that she is guilty there are those who aren't (including a doctor). Not because we thing she's innocent but because there is some reasonable doubt, in our minds, that there could be an alternative to intentional killing.

In terms of will she be offered a plea deal, if the prosecution thinks that they are unlikely to succeed in a conviction on murder, they may offer her a deal. If the jury find her not guilty of murder I believe it is open to the jury to consider manslaughter, though usually the option is raised early on to avoid unfairness to the defence- I'm not sure if it has been here.

Could the "admin day" be an opportunity for prosecution and defence council to discuss one or more of those possibilties with the judge? (Genuinely no idea beyond what I've seen on television here!)

IIRC the children's' evidence was pre-recorded and not cross examined - so we don't know if EP actually had any gastro symptoms at all or if that is just what she told the kids.

While there are those on this thread alone who are convinced beyond any doubt that she is guilty there are those who aren't (including a doctor).

I don't mean to be disrespectful to anyone, but that was a doctor who hadn't managed to grasp their are distinct and massive bloodwork differences bewteen the ill and dying patients and the bloodwork of EP, whose was normal.

*there

Was talking to my uncle fancy-pants barrister briefly last night. He basically said look, the Crown charged her with murder. If the intent was not to kill or seriously injure, the judge can leave the alternative of manslaughter. Which is effectively what Yazzi said.

This is good, I think. It means if the jury fall for the honest mistake idea she will likely still go down on 3 counts of manslaughter.

Now, I don't mean to malign the members of the jury. I was potentially one myself (in that I was called for duty at Morwell in the same period). It'd be a very big deal to send someone to prison, particularly a mother, for 3 counts of murder if you weren't 101% convinced.

Good to know if they can't reach a decision on murder that manslaughter is an option.

Yes, that's a point, and as the previous attempts on Simon's life and the intended attempt charges related to this lunch were dropped from this case, it could well be she could be retried for that, perhaps? Probably not...

I do find it fascinating that anyone could read the basic known facts, and the evidence so far, and believe this amazing series of coincidences occurred - that meant that although Erin read a post alerting and warning foragers about sightings of Death Cap mushrooms and went to that same area and returned and bought a dehydrator that same afternoon, and then when another post alerted about more DC in a different location, she went the next day to both locations where DC were sighted, and she accidentally foraged them!

Then she made, months later, a mushroom duxelle (muts have worn gloves!) for individual Beef Wellingtons and somehow absolutely none of the poisonous mushrooms went into her portion! Because if they had, she would have had at the very least, raised LFTs, and hers were normal.

And then, having accidentally used that dehydrator she bought on the day she accidentally foraged Death Caps, somehow no-one in the household ever did get poisoned before or after, as well as during the lunch. They are a lucky bunch.

And then, for reasons no-one can explain, she accidentally told the lunch party she had been diagnosed with ovarian cancer (of the elbow!), having used a major health update as the reason for extending a rare invitation to her house.

I am really looking forward to the toxicologist and mycologists the prosection will no doubt be calling to give evidence. Also, the digital forensics results.

This also does my head in.

Her research on DCs could be explained by her general interest in foraging & desire to identify what not to pick. Equals honest mistake, I truly fucked up. However-

Even cooking them would've required gloves, as you say. They are THAT poisonous. Honest mistake would've meant she'd either be dead or living with a transplanted liver.

We're supposed to believe in 'Oops, I know I said I had a lump on my elbow, and ovarian cancer, but that was just panic'.

Am also looking forward to the mycologist & toxicologist. Damn, I wish Antonio Carluccio was alive & called into court; he'd give it to them straight.

What is the talk in the area like now? Is it really hard to get a park or a seat in a coffee shop because of all the journos? Some fellow on that ACA piece a week or two ago said they'd done up the public gardens because of the trial!

I have caught up on various podcasts and articles and agree it would be an unlikely series of coincidences. In particular, though, I think her actions after the event are highly suspicious and don’t really sit with an accidental scenario. Or at the very least suggest that she didn’t care much for whether she could help…

I suppose what I still find slightly odd is that Simon didn’t go straight round and confront her as soon as his parents / relatives were ill, or at least send her a barrage of messages asking questions…wanting answers about the meal. He must have been very distracted. Did he have the younger child with him that night overnight?

edit: typos. Really must get used to preview function!

I don't know much about it. But sounds like she is guilty. I heard something about different coloured plates the other day. One colour for folk getting the poisoned mushrooms and another colour for the non poisoned ones. Classic Agatha Christie to give others a tiny portion of the lethal substance so as not to arouse suspicion as they would be ill too but not die.

He dropped his daughter back at around 9pm the night of the lunch. I expect he was at his parents' bedsides in the hospital, and previously that morning he was at Ian and Heather Wilkinson's seeing they were okay and driving them to hospital. He knew what they'd eaten as H and I told him about it. I don't think he'd want to go and confront her as a top priority, though he did communicate with her - she wanted him to drive her to the hospital at some point and he said to get an ambulance as he'd been at the hospital until after 2am and had only had a couple of hours' sleep.

I dont live in Morwell, just know people there...we all need to travel between towns for different services.

I didn't catch the ACA piece, but whoever said the public gardens were done up for the trial is making me laugh😂 The council does that twice a year, both the Sth Gippsland Council where Morwell is and the Bass Coast Council where I live. I'll take a pic of the flowers on the roundabout down the road. 🌺🌼🌷

Forgot to say, the rush in Morwell has settled down, from what I've heard. The talk has always been that she bloody did it. Seriously, not one local has said differently. Even the church types, of which I am not. I've never met any of the people involved, but obviously some locals have.

I would have made a woeful juror.

I didn't catch the ACA piece, but whoever said the public gardens were done up for the trial is making me laugh

It was so funny. They showed a flash of a public rose garden, all in bloom and looking very neat, as he was saying it - and I thought, but those are roses, you can't just plant them or make them flower for the occasion!

Yup, they just shoved some plastic roses & gerberas in to make it look noice 👌

It sounds as though she didn’t fit in to the town, the people, the life. I guess I’m just always a bit wary of close knit places because there’s a risk that someone who is different, or a bit odd, or has mental health issues etc has a hard time. It’s easy to paint someone as the villain just because they don’t conform. I honestly don’t know if it’s the case here, and as pp have eloquently shown, there is a lot of evidence pointing towards her involvement - I’m just pointing out that the fact that all the locals say she did it doesn’t necessarily mean anything in itself. Interesting that she pushed for the trial to stay local.

Thank you. Yes, I can imagine his incredulity at being asked for a lift to hospital!

AFAIK Erin fit in as well as anyone who moved here but wasn't born here. A bit like myself. She helped to run a local newspaper (The Burra Flyer) and was involved in other community stuff.

These towns aren't as close knit as you think. We're not all up in each other's business typically! Only when something like this happens do people talk to each other about it.

She certainly wasn't known as as odd or different etc.

But I do agree the fact that all the locals say she did it doesn't mean much. If anything I think most of the locals I know simply aren't keen on baptists.

@Dustyblue aha, interesting.

Well, let’s see. If anything our debates show how important a rigorous legal process is in ensuring it is all examined in depth.