America's Gun Control

As I've said before you're not the thread police. I'm showing you a mirror when you call other nations stupid without seeing the stupidity of your own.

‘Except when it's migrant children being killed at sea because of inhumane asylum policies that people vote for - then it's OK’

no, it’s not okay and while I abhor the U.K. new immigration stance - it’s not what we’re discussing on this thread, is it?
So if you can’t stick to the discussion on the thread, I suppose you can’t. And if you feel that strongly - then start a thread on immigration.

But fair enough, I've made my point and will leave you to it.

what I don’t get is how my SIL and her DH who don’t have guns, and aren’t interested in guns or hunting, and have to send their children to school with bullet proof plates in their backpacks - still don’t support gun control.
they live in the south, but completely and unconditionally support the right to bear arms - unrestricted. They’ve moved to a gated community with security at the gates because they feel so unsafe in their city because of guns and drugs.
bizarre that they can’t see that there’s any correlation between unfettered gun ownership and violent crime.

Still wondering what that point was.

There were no school shootings prior to Hamilton, had the law been enforced by the local police Dunblane would never have happened.

don't really understand how you could ban guns in the US. Who is going to take them away from the people who refuse to give them up? Who is going to stop people smuggling them in illegally?

Just because a policy is hard it doesn't mean it's impossible and shouldn't be tried. Besides no one is talking about a total ban sadly I don't think that would ever happen but much tighter gun controls should be possible.

Because we’ve never bloody allowed it! We’ve never allowed people to walk into Tesco’s and buy a semi automatic for god sake. And I’m sorry, but that is very fucking stupid.

Im honestly past caring, Americans have ultimately decided that school shootings are a price worth paying to keep their guns. It’s none of our business.

Exactly this.

@Naunet - that's ok. Just enjoy your feeling of moral and intellectual superiority and pass lightly over your ignorance of the actual history and problems of dealing with the issue.

Are you trying to say selling army grade weapons in Walmart is not fucking stupid? Please do explain why this is actually an intelligent thing to do.

Sigh. Nobody claims it's intelligent. Those of us who actually live in the USA and understand the way the constitution and system of government works and why you can't just wave your hands and institute a ban on guns get very very tired of continually explaining to our British friends the ways in which we are not the UK. Given that the Equal Rights Amendment hasn't been ratified yet after sixty years, what do you think the odds are of getting an amendment to change the second amendment? Or do you think Americans are willing to just junk their Constitution? Really, if you want to feel clever be my guest and go ahead, but that feeling is going to do nothing to solve the problems of a country where there are more guns than people. The situation here is not remotely like the pre-Dunblane system in the UK and UK-style solutions will not work here.

To try and give you an analogy (not a great one but I'm thinking with my keyboard here), imagine that somebody points out how many people are killed in the UK by cars every year and proposes that car ownership be tightened up and that people who can't demonstrate that they can't get anywhere by public transport have to hand their cars in (also to reduce our impact on climate change as a bonus byproduct). How do you think the majority of sensible and responsible car owners who have never been involved in an accident in their lives would react to that? And do bear in mind that the actual need for guns is far higher here in the US than in the UK.

Now imagine that you have to get that piece of legislation through every single county council in the country, at least half of which would be rural and completely opposed to it.

The reason it's a poor analogy is that we do, of course, license and tax motor vehicles and require insurance for them. That, honestly, is the only type of progress that I see as remotely likely in tackling the gun issue in the US.

Ahh right, so you just thought you’d call me ignorant even though I didn’t mention history or politics or gun ownership in general, didn’t even share my views on that, but just one very specific situation that IS FUCKING STUPID, and then rather than address that point, and explain why it’s not stupid, you address lots of others ones that are completely irrelevant to what I said.

It is stupid to allow military grade weapons to be sold in supermarkets. You’ve said yourself it’s not intelligent, so stop getting defensive for no reason.

Worthy of a little consideration is the fact that during the ten years between 1994 and 2004, when there was a ban on selling assault weapons in the USA (not a very complete one, at that), the death-toll from mass killings fell really quite dramatically even though Columbine was in 1999 slap in the middle of it, and it rose seriously straight after the ban fell into desuetude. So it is possible to do something about this carnage without having to take all guns from the cold dead hands of all the gun freaks in every state, piecemeal. Not letting some of them get into the hands of anyone at all in the first place would be good. (Bad for Putin and bad for the arms manufacturers, but good for the children and possibly the black people and women.)

Maybe just not selling assault weapons to people before they are old enough to buy a drink legally in every state might be a good start, considering how often it seems to be disgruntled adolescents who buy themselves an AK-15 because, like Kyle Rittenhouse, they think it looks cool, and then go out to kill off some of the people they are not happy with, often starting with their mom because she's tried to bring them up to be decent people and failed.

Maybe the red flag laws to stop domestic abusers and the mentally disturbed from legally possessing a firearm might also be a help; they would probably save the lives of quite a few women, at least.

An instant blanket ban or no action at all being presented as the only two possibilities is silly.

And yes, I agree: licence and tax guns, and have mandatory insurance... The insurance companies would be likely to weed out the "poor risk" gun-owners and decline to offer them insurance except at punitive rates after their first "accident" with a loaded gun, or the first time their child took it from their purse and fired it at a friend for fun.

An instant blanket ban or no action at all being presented as the only two possibilities is silly.

I've just noticed the parallels with the NHS debate. Any time that reform is suggested, it's shut down by "you wouldn't want the American system instead", as if there was no middle ground. Nigel Lawson said the the NHS is the "closest thing the English have to religion"; the obsession with guns in the US seems to be a religion too (I even saw some Republican claiming that it was a "God-given right").

Incidentally, road deaths in the UK have been slowly but steadily falling for years now. You have to leave out the pandemic years because the disease messed with road usage, but taking the most recent that seems reasonable and allowing that last year's figures are not yet in, 1,752 out of a population of about 60,000,000 is not as great a per capita rate as the 12.21 per 100,000 in the USA; 2.92/100,000 as against 12.5/100,000.

Yes to all of this. And I would add, continue to open up liability for gun manufacturers to be sued for mass shootings.

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-week/can-gun-makers-be-liable-in-mass-shootings

A president couldn't on his own. He'd need Congress on his side to pass gun control laws. And not enough members of Congress would agree, because at best the NRA would fund opponents and get them defeated; at worst their lives would be threatened by violent (and armed) extremists.

Just seen this on twitter - there isn’t the appetite for positive change

https://twitter.com/therealandrew_/status/1641123377703268353?s=46&t=7uZ5GLraCHnmbl4o9C79gA

The assault weapon ban was successful. Unfortunately given the composition of the Supreme Court, it's quite likely that it would be struck down if re-instituted.

the Washington Post had quite an interesting article the other day on how AR-15s became so common.

It's not even as simple as "The 2nd Amendment is a religion;" these legislatures are passing laws simply because liberals hate them. The more that moderates/liberals/left wingers advocate for any gun control the more conservative states insist that any restrictions are a violation of their rights. It's like one of those finger trap toys.

Two snippets of news as reported in America today might help people to see what an uphill struggle gun reform is here. No, it doesn't make sense but this is what we have to deal with:

Kevin McCarthy suggested that lawmakers need to see “all the facts” before they consider any gun legislation following the shooting in Nashville where seven people were killed. The Nashville shooting was the 130th mass shooting incident in this U.S. this year, so far. Democrats planned to introduce a measure to boost federal research into the cause of gun violence, but it has little chance of passing the Republican-controlled House. Republican congressman Tim Burchett, meanwhile, said Congress is “not gonna fix” the problem of school shootings and that he doesn’t see a role for Congress in preventing future shootings “other than mess things up.” Instead, the three-term congressman from Tennessee suggested that Americans should focus on more thoughts and prayers, saying: “If you want to legislate evil, it’s just not going to happen. We need a real revival in this country. Let’s call on our Christian ministers and our people of faith.” (CNN / Washington Post)
2/ North Carolina residents no longer need a permit to buy a handgun. The state’s Republican-led legislature eliminated the longstanding permit system that required local sheriffs to perform character evaluations and criminal history checks of pistol applicants. Although Democratic Gov. Roy Cooper vetoed the measure, the legislature overrode the veto. The permit repeal takes effect immediately. (Associated Press / USA Today)

All those US politicians wearing little AR-15 pins on their labels, absolutely sickening.

I can see why it's a complete uphill battle why gun reform isn't going to happen very soon if ever. however there is 2 types of Americans here. One side who sees the completely insane way guns have little regulations and mass shootings is a major problem and know its the guns that's the issues. And then the other side who are entitled and say owning a gun is my right bla bla bla, it's obvious why the main reason politicians keep doing nothing about gun reform, they r paid by gun companies and lobbies to do exactly nothing and they clearly care more about money and keeping power than childrens live. But the Ordinary Americans who I do understand to an extent have been brainwashed by the politicians who obviously need them to keep on their side, which they have done by Perpetuating fear. But don't they have to get to a point of waking up and realising their being used by the politicians. Also why can't they just admit yes my right to own my gun is more important to me than random children being murdered. And ask themselves if they would be so gun loving if it was their own child gunned down in school. I feel like their needs to be some honest and pretty brutal conversations which Conveniently are not being had. I feel like if ur going to be entitled and selfish then at least own it. And if ur not owning it then maybe u have to ask ur self why.

What I think will happen is mass shootings will still keep happening more children will die. Nothing will be done but in 20/30 years maybe longer, from now u will get the first generation who have actually had to live though this either from trauma from being at a mass shooting and witnessing their friends die or know someone who has been in one. Also the potential trauma of having to just know that these things happen, there and no where else. And they will not want to put their own children through it. And hopefully they will try and make change. They will basically question if rights to own weapons is actually more important than the trauma that they live through. I mean I'm hopeful but not 100% convinced. I think the brainwashing is hardwired. I mean if small children being brutally murdered isn't making u at least stop and think then what can! Maybe if it happens to an actual politician they might suddenly clear less about the money. Which I'm obviously not hoping will happen. But I think it's a valid point.