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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU my best friend's daughter only had a Muslim marriage and we are worried about custody of her son? (title edited by MNHQ at request of OP)

75 replies

joycies · 21/05/2023 18:35

Background : Muslim couple with 2 yr old son. Married 3 years then he walks out then comes back to throw them out. This came totally out of the blue, suddenly he says this isn't what he thought marriage was all about and she is a lousy, ungrateful, wife/mother, only after his money.

She goes home to her Mum with her son and he comes and takes him out a couple of times a week.
In a usual UK divorce, the court decides on custody but in the Islamic system there doesn't seem to be rules?

OP posts:
VivaVivaa · 21/05/2023 20:21

The Mum hasn't worked in the last 3 years. The house is in his sole name and she contributed to the deposit but is not on the mortgage documents. The father is named on the birth certificate

She needs a good solicitor, re UK law as opposed to religious law. They were not legally married and she isn’t named on any legal documents so she has no obvious rights to their joint house. If she isn’t earning and is effectively homeless he has a strong case to increase the amount of contact he has, in the DCs best interest. This doesn’t mean he can take the child out of the country though on a whim. Does the child have a passport already? Who has it if they do?

knitpicky · 21/05/2023 20:28

Forget about Sharia law and focus solely on UK law. Your daughter needs to find a good solicitor and get some proper advice based on her actual situation.

BTW, people keep going on about "custody" on MN, but there's no such thing in UK law.

knitpicky · 21/05/2023 20:30

If she isn’t earning and is effectively homeless he has a strong case to increase the amount of contact he has, in the DCs best interest

Not if the mother has been the main carer for the child up until now. Taking the child away from his mother would be the reverse of "in the DC's best interest".

But they need legal advice, not MN advice.

Redebs · 21/05/2023 20:31

If she didn't also do a registry office wedding certificate, then it is much simpler for them to separate as a previously co-habiting couple.

If he's paying her £1000 a month, he's likely to be fulfilling his obligations to child support. She can check via the online calculator on the CSA website.

She will be entitled to claim Universal Credit if she doesn't have income or savings. She might be eligible to go on the list for social housing.

They need to undergo mediation to establish child custody arrangements and she can stipulate no overseas travel for her children without her permission. I strongly advise getting a solicitor for advice before going to family court.

VivaVivaa · 21/05/2023 20:38

knitpicky · 21/05/2023 20:30

If she isn’t earning and is effectively homeless he has a strong case to increase the amount of contact he has, in the DCs best interest

Not if the mother has been the main carer for the child up until now. Taking the child away from his mother would be the reverse of "in the DC's best interest".

But they need legal advice, not MN advice.

Apologies, I didn’t word it well. I’m not for one second suggesting that it is definitely in the DCs best interest to be separated from their mother more. But spelled out to a court as above - home ownership and regular income vs neither of those things…i’m fully in agreement with you that the DD needs good legal advice as I suggested.

JudgeRudy · 21/05/2023 20:44

My advice would be to keep or apply for passports for the children and keep them in a secure place away from the family home.
Unless there is any 'wrong doing' the father would have parental rights as he is named on the birth certificate.
I think your concern is that he may try to leave the country with the children and not return. It's all well and good saying he's not allowed to do this but people do....and it's very difficult getting the children back. Is there any reason for your daughter to think he would do this? He's paying child support so at some level he has the children's welfare at heart though evicting them from the family home isn't a great move.
Where are they staying now? You mention your daughter being hospitalised due to her mental health. Is this an isolated incident or has she had previous/ongoing episodes requiring in patient care? Any decisions made regards the children should be in their best interest. A loving stable relationship with the wider family eg you will be taken into consideration.

Dibbydoos · 21/05/2023 20:47

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

gogohmm · 21/05/2023 20:53

Child custody is not connected to whether the couple were married or not.

fuzzwuss · 21/05/2023 20:53

Her marriage is not legally recognised, so she is treated as if she was unmarried. Not sure why ypu think that she would not get anywhere in the family courts. Plenty of unmarried couples go through the family courts to sort custody. The fact that she contributed to the deposit is something she should speak to a solicitor about.

GirloutofAfrica · 21/05/2023 20:55

She might want to start looking after herself so he doesn't claim she isn't fit to care for the child. She can look into a prohibited steps order to ensure he doesn't take the child out of the country. Your post suggests he has PR so equal rights.

magma32 · 21/05/2023 21:06

they’ll be treated as unmarried couple and ignore sharia courts, which have no legal standing in the U.K. and are not allowed to give any dodgy rulings in this country. I wish more women people would realise the Islamic nikah done the U.K. is not a legal contract like it is in countries which follow Islamic law. More often than not the man insists they don’t need a it legalising and more often than not the man encourages the woman to leave work as hell provide everything until shit hits the fan and she’s left with nothing.

you need a really good lawyer and she may even get to stay in the marital home until children are 18 and/or get a share because of her deposit.

often these men will say sharia law says this or that and tell the woman he has to gain custody but that’s just BS as it means nothing in the U.K. so please don’t let your daughter fall for that.

also get in touch with women’s aid in case he’s been abusive (coercion, control is also abuse) and they can advise on things too. Keep things formal with him, any contact in writing so emails, texts etc.

joycies · 21/05/2023 21:07

Whowhatwherewhenwhy1 · 21/05/2023 18:59

More importantly if things are acrimonious she needs to make sure she has the childs passport and log that he is not allowed to leave the country with the child.

I think the father might get him added on his passport or applying for a new one.

OP posts:
SaveMeFromMyBoobs · 21/05/2023 21:11

Child arrangements in the UK has zero bearings on if the parents are married.

She can take him to court for a prohibitive steps order to prevent him removing any of the children from the UK.

JustFrustrated · 21/05/2023 21:24

joycies · 21/05/2023 21:07

I think the father might get him added on his passport or applying for a new one.

You can't "add" a child to your passport in the UK.

ISeeTheLight · 21/05/2023 21:28

OP you should ask MNHQ to move this to legal.

joycies · 21/05/2023 21:29

magma32 · 21/05/2023 21:06

they’ll be treated as unmarried couple and ignore sharia courts, which have no legal standing in the U.K. and are not allowed to give any dodgy rulings in this country. I wish more women people would realise the Islamic nikah done the U.K. is not a legal contract like it is in countries which follow Islamic law. More often than not the man insists they don’t need a it legalising and more often than not the man encourages the woman to leave work as hell provide everything until shit hits the fan and she’s left with nothing.

you need a really good lawyer and she may even get to stay in the marital home until children are 18 and/or get a share because of her deposit.

often these men will say sharia law says this or that and tell the woman he has to gain custody but that’s just BS as it means nothing in the U.K. so please don’t let your daughter fall for that.

also get in touch with women’s aid in case he’s been abusive (coercion, control is also abuse) and they can advise on things too. Keep things formal with him, any contact in writing so emails, texts etc.

It's not my own daughter, it's a good friends. Her daughter won't even talk about it to anyone. She ended up on a drip in hospital and looks like a skeleton. Since she won't do anything, I'm trying to see what could be done. It's beyond me or her Mum what a man can do to his non-wife, what is OK and what is abuse. He threw her out and now says she'll never see her 10,000 pounds again. He wants everything he has ever given her back including the engagement ring. The house is in his name only so I thinks that's all that counts. Neither she nor her parents have 2 pennies to rub together so a good lawyer is out of the question. He has a good job and excellent salary so he can afford the best lawyers in town. He seemed to be so nice and just changed overnight.

OP posts:
joycies · 21/05/2023 21:32

VivaVivaa · 21/05/2023 20:21

The Mum hasn't worked in the last 3 years. The house is in his sole name and she contributed to the deposit but is not on the mortgage documents. The father is named on the birth certificate

She needs a good solicitor, re UK law as opposed to religious law. They were not legally married and she isn’t named on any legal documents so she has no obvious rights to their joint house. If she isn’t earning and is effectively homeless he has a strong case to increase the amount of contact he has, in the DCs best interest. This doesn’t mean he can take the child out of the country though on a whim. Does the child have a passport already? Who has it if they do?

It's not my own daughter, it's a good friends. Her daughter won't even talk about it to anyone. I don't know whether he has a passport. I am worried that even is he does and my friend's daughter has it, maybe the ex could get him added on his own passport.

OP posts:
toddlermom99 · 21/05/2023 21:37

You can't get a child 'added on' to your passport. They require their own. If they don't have a passport already then the mother needs to get in there first and never let her ex have the passports.

joycies · 21/05/2023 21:38

JustFrustrated · 21/05/2023 21:24

You can't "add" a child to your passport in the UK.

That's a relief, Thanks.

OP posts:
joycies · 21/05/2023 21:40

Redebs · 21/05/2023 20:31

If she didn't also do a registry office wedding certificate, then it is much simpler for them to separate as a previously co-habiting couple.

If he's paying her £1000 a month, he's likely to be fulfilling his obligations to child support. She can check via the online calculator on the CSA website.

She will be entitled to claim Universal Credit if she doesn't have income or savings. She might be eligible to go on the list for social housing.

They need to undergo mediation to establish child custody arrangements and she can stipulate no overseas travel for her children without her permission. I strongly advise getting a solicitor for advice before going to family court.

Is this mediation done by the Family Court? I wonder if you can apply without needing a solicotor since she doesn't have a penny.

OP posts:
magma32 · 21/05/2023 21:40

joycies · 21/05/2023 21:29

It's not my own daughter, it's a good friends. Her daughter won't even talk about it to anyone. She ended up on a drip in hospital and looks like a skeleton. Since she won't do anything, I'm trying to see what could be done. It's beyond me or her Mum what a man can do to his non-wife, what is OK and what is abuse. He threw her out and now says she'll never see her 10,000 pounds again. He wants everything he has ever given her back including the engagement ring. The house is in his name only so I thinks that's all that counts. Neither she nor her parents have 2 pennies to rub together so a good lawyer is out of the question. He has a good job and excellent salary so he can afford the best lawyers in town. He seemed to be so nice and just changed overnight.

If you don’t know whether he has been abusive follow this link and domestic abuse victims can get legal aid, so she needs to gather evidence when she’s is well enough.

https://www.womensaid.org.uk/information-support/what-is-domestic-abuse/

i am not a lawyer but I believe under the children’s Act she can stay in his house if she was the primary carer even without being married and having her name on the house or mortgage but without a lawyer she would be stuck.

in terms of family law they don’t need to be married and for her to block any attempts for him leaving the country. I often wonder why so many parents watch their daughters have nikah only ‘marriages’ and don’t warn them of consequences once they let go of their financial independence.

What is domestic abuse? - Women’s Aid

Domestic abuse is an incident or pattern of incidents of controlling, coercive, threatening, degrading and violent behaviour, including sexual violence.

https://www.womensaid.org.uk/information-support/what-is-domestic-abuse/

magma32 · 21/05/2023 21:42

She can apply for child support without needing a lawyer but if she’s not well enough I don’t think anyone else can on her behalf really.

joycies · 21/05/2023 21:53

GoodChat · 21/05/2023 18:38

Where were they married?

Are they legally married or only religiously married?

Only religiously in London

OP posts:
joycies · 21/05/2023 21:58

knitpicky · 21/05/2023 20:28

Forget about Sharia law and focus solely on UK law. Your daughter needs to find a good solicitor and get some proper advice based on her actual situation.

BTW, people keep going on about "custody" on MN, but there's no such thing in UK law.

I THOUGHT 'CUSTODY' MEANT WHERE THE CHILD LIVED ABD THE VISITING RIGHTS?

OP posts:
SaturdayGiraffe · 21/05/2023 22:06

Poor child. Dad disappears and mum reacts by starving herself into hospital.
I hope the grandparents can at least provide some stability.