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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to not understand the big deal about the naughty step?

44 replies

CheerfulYank · 06/07/2010 18:53

I've seen some threads and heard some people in RL decrying the naughty corner (or chair, or step, etc.) Why? I think it's perfectly reasonable to teach children that there will be unfortunate consequences for not-okay behavior. Does anyone know why some people aren't into it?

OP posts:
pjmama · 06/07/2010 19:04

No idea! It works for me, so I'll be sticking with it. Far preferable to smacking IMO.

Itsjustafleshwound · 06/07/2010 19:04

I think the issue with the naughty step is that it is just one of many parenting tools and often it is used inappropriately - ie. the children are too young, used too much or the 'rules' aren't followed to make the punishment effective.

There are better, more appropriate ways to discipline children, but at the same time time-outs and removal of children can be effective.

pjmama · 06/07/2010 19:07

"better, more appropriate" - care to elaborate?

CheerfulYank · 06/07/2010 19:15

We do the "1,2,3," thing...if DS is doing something he's not supposed to, or not doing something he is supposed to, we count slowly to 3 and then he goes to his room with no questions. Or with something really naughty, like hitting, he goes immediately.

OP posts:
Jamieandhismagictorch · 06/07/2010 19:17

I agree with itsjustafleshwound

Itsjustafleshwound · 06/07/2010 19:25

I suppose what I am trying to say is that there have been so many similar programmes on television (Jo Frost/Supernanny) that have used this tool to bring children in line.

I have no beef with the method, if it is used appropriately (you do as you have threatened/don't change the rules at the last minute/ follow through with the punishment/ don't use it for every minor transgression/ child is old enough to understand consequences), but there are other ways and tools to discipline children.

CheerfulYank · 06/07/2010 19:25

I agree about it being overused. I know some parents who are all, "Time out? Do you need a time out?" for every little thing, or with children who are too young to understand. But when it's used properly I don't see the issue. I also remember reading about a man who advocated for no discipline, saying that it would give your child the idea that your love is conditional. My feeling is that because I love my son, I won't let him out into the world thinking that it's all right to do whatever he wants and that there will be no consequences.

OP posts:
lecce · 06/07/2010 19:36

Cheerful, if you mean 'Unconditional Parenting' by Alfie Kohn he does not advocate no discipline, but no punishment - they are not the same thing though many people seem to think they are.

This is my beef with the naughty step - if you say you don't use it people assume you are letting your child run riot and not bothering to check their behaviour at at all and this is not the case.

CheerfulYank · 06/07/2010 19:44

No, I don't think that at all lecce, I know what you mean. If parents discipline their children in other ways that's fine, I just don't see the issue with the naughty step if that's the parent's chosen method. (As long as it's used appropriately.)

I'm not sure if it's Kohn's method I'm thinking of, but it could very well be. What sort of discipline does he endorse?

OP posts:
lecce · 06/07/2010 20:02

It's not a 'method' - he is very much against parenting manuals and methods that claim to have all the answers.

Basically, he describes praise and punishment as being two sides of the same coin and believes punishment diverts children's attention form the 'real' consequences of their actions.

He is very keen on giving choices and explaining your decisions etc to children.
I'm sure someone else is more knowledgable than me about it.

I don't live my life by it but it's very interesting and made a lot of sense to me.

Jamieandhismagictorch · 06/07/2010 20:03

It was not necessary/would not have been useful for DS1, but I used it for DS2 - when he was around 3 and hitting people.

duckyfuzz · 06/07/2010 20:07

I find it interesting too lecce, its about getting kids to do the right thing for the sake of it, rather than to avoid punishment, or to get a treat. I try to live by it but woudl need the patience of a saint (and no job!) so end up with a sort of compromise. We rarely punish our DTs but they do know right from wrong and are well behaved - how much of this is down to our parenting I'm not sure! DH sometimes uses naughty step (less than 5 times that I can remember, they are 6.8) or takes away a toy and sometimes they are sent to their room to reflect on their actions, but no removal of affection

Snobear4000 · 06/07/2010 22:04

That naughty step works for me. Amazing, the power of it.

Along with rewards for good behaviour of course

Reallytired · 06/07/2010 22:16

I think its best to think of discipline as leading your children rather like a disciple. Chilren need to learn to do the right thing rather than to behave in a particular way because they are scared or have been bribed.

I think that consequences related to the bad behaviour work better. For example if my son puts the TV on without permission then he is banned from TV for 24 hours.

Another example if he throws a tantum then I send him to his room until he has calmed down. I do not want the company of a tantruming or whiney eight year old.

I think the naughty step is a bit of a waste of time as its next to impossible to get a child to sit on it. Very young children don't understand and with older children there are better methods.

SloanyPony · 06/07/2010 22:40

I dont really like the naughty step method and have never used it in its pure form.

Its not "supposed" to be used on under 3's for a start - can't remember the "experts" rationale but its to do with congnitive development and the argument is apparently to do with its effectiveness but many parents will argue anecdotally that it is effective under this age. I have seen it used on 18 month olds, even a crude form of time out on a one year old being put in his cot though because you can't make them sit on a step easily at that age. But hearing about the "not for under 3's" thing was what initially stopped me trying it, as it made sense and had a bit of science to back it up, and in any event I couldn't fathom my child staying on there at that point either. Almost like setting them up for failure and taking even more focus away from the original "bad behaviour" by adding something else they've done wrong and then dealing with that on top of the original thing.

I have used on occasions a form of exclusion, where I've warned that if a certain behaviour against a sibling continues, said child will be excluded from the room so as not to do the behaviour as its not nice - child wants to be in room where the action is so stops behaviour. Have occasionally had to enforce the exclusion until said child is willing to co-operate which is very quickly as doesn't like being excluded - but not really naughty step and does not involve sitting on a step on in a certain place, but is technically "time out". Doesn't get used often as it simply doesn't need to be.

I find under 2, a telling off is generally enough - it does kind of fall on deaf ears (or selective deafness) a bit, but it is enough to communicate that the behaviour is not acceptable. I found a consequence at that age, whatever it was you threaten them with and then carry through, was relatively ineffectual in stopping them do the behaviour again - because I found personally at that age it was just their age that was making them do that and they sort of had to grow out of it as well as having it drummed into them not to do it simply by being told off. So I'd tell them off, but a punishment as such wouldn't deter.

Once they hit 2 or thereabouts I found they were ready for a consequence, and as they get older that consequence can be a bit more severe. When I say severe, leaving someone's house or a fun place because after warnings, behaviour is inappropriate was VERY effective for me recently - I have not had to endure the behaviour since. So I do "punish" as such but I try and make it very topical to the behaviour. This afternoon my son took something from my baby daughter. I told him to give it back, he ran off with it, I warned him that if he didn't give it back on the count of 3 I'd take his balloon until he changed his mind and gave it back. Count of 3 didn't work, I took the balloon, put it out of reach, he went mental, gave thing back to baby daughter, so he got the balloon back. So his punishment for taking something was to have something taken. Whereas to put him on a naughty step makes less sense for me - its not topical enough, whereas I'd like to think the consequence I chose today was more likely to drum in why its not nice to have something taken from you - if I'd put him on the naughty step, I suspect he might have forgotten why he was even there, and the focus would be more on keeping him on it (I know you do the talking to thing as well but that puts all the attention on him and none on the wronged party) - whereas the consequence I chose was very much themed upon having something taken off you and treating others as you'd like to be treated and was very effective in getting him to give the thing back, but hopefully, also, reminded him that having something you like taken off you isn't very nice.

Its a bit personal preference and a bit what your child is like. My children are "naturally" pretty well behaved thus far so I am fortunate in that regard and consequently no expert.

I have read Alfie Kohn and he does make a lot of sense but I think he goes a bit far with the idea that naughty step teaches them conditional love etc - I suppose it might send that message but any kind of behaviour correction might, you could argue. That's not really why I dont like it.

It just doesn't sing to me as an effective method, even though I've never tried it - I just dont believe in it, therefore there is no point doing it, because I just dont buy into it.

I dont have a problem or judge other people using it though, I dont fall into that camp - one friend who used it from very early on and still uses it, though she has rebranded it from "naughty step" to "thinking chair" has one of the worst behaved children I know - probably co-incidence and fair play to her for trying - but I do feel he's now of an age where actually she could probably find a consequence that's more relevant and "painful" for him, as he doesn't seem to give a toss if he has to sit on a chair for 3 minutes, its all a great big joke and he just bides his time before getting off the chair and repeating the behaviour. For her, its clearly not working, so I judge it on that basis but not the method itself, so much, as for some it really does seem to work.

mrspir8 · 06/07/2010 22:54

empathic-parenting.com/talk/yabb2/YaBB.pl

A useful site that may have some of the answers to your question.

zapostrophe · 06/07/2010 22:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

emy72 · 06/07/2010 23:00

I find the naughty step/going for time out a really useful tool for separating children when they are fighting/being nasty to each other.

It not only sends the message that it is unacceptable to hit/push/bite/insult but also it helps to diffuse tempers and let everyone take time out to think and calm down.

In my house it works really well.

I don't use it for anything else though.

CheerfulYank · 07/07/2010 02:42

Right, zap. I usually let things take their "natural course" too-for instance DS was throwing a toy down the stairs the other day and I told him to stop as he'd break it. He didn't stop, it broke, and I threw it away as it now had a sharp edge. That was the end of that. But for some things there are no natural consequnce and for those I use the 1,2,3...time out thing.

OP posts:
nooka · 07/07/2010 03:03

My ds was fairly badly behaved, but the "naughty step" would have been totally ineffective, because when he was being bad he certainly wasn't doing anything I told him, so I would have had to wrestle him there, and then pin him down (I did do the toddler taming put them in their room thing, but this meant I had to wrestle him there, put him down in the far corner, race him to the door, and then hold it shut on him. It really didn't work!). dd was pretty good and didn't really need time out type approaches.

But if it works for other people, that's fine. I'm just glad my children have grown out of needing this type of approach - we have many more sanctions at our disposal now they are older.

streakybacon · 07/07/2010 08:23

The naughty step actually made matters worse for my ds. He has AS but wasn't diagnosed till he was 7, and we were advised to use the naughty step by a mental health nurse who (to be fair) I don't think had any other tricks up her sleeve.

In his case it just escalated the anger and aggression because he didn't understand the reasons why he was being punished. At the height of temper he couldn't be reasoned with and would lash out and kick at me. It was really quite damaging.

We dismissed the mental health nurse and her repertoire and found other ways of dealing with his behaviour which worked much more effectively, mainly around prevention. He still has problems but we've learned that this kind of punishment is counterproductive for him so we don't use it.

But I do agree that with typical children and if used consistently and correctly it's a very useful and effective tool. What I object to is the notion that it works for every child when that's not the case.

poshsinglemum · 07/07/2010 08:45

I like the naughty step. I read Alfie Kohn and he's far too wishy washy for me. Even his style of writing is confusing and full of grey areas. I don't think putting soemone on the naughty step or time out demonstrates taht you don't love them. I think it demonstrates that you don't like their behaviour.

LisaD1 · 07/07/2010 08:56

I use the "naughty spot" rather than a step as the spot is much more mobile (did you know they have one in EVERY shopping centre )

I have found it really works for my DD who is 2.5yrs old, the reason it works for her is that she is a very feisty little person, not unlike me, and when she gets angry she needs to be able to calm down by herself, also not unlike me, so I send her to the spot to calm down and then she says sorry for whatever it was she did that was unacceptable. I don't use it often, probably once or twice a week at most, but I do use it when I think we both need a bit of time to calm down.

It's not called the naughty spot in our house though, just the spot, and DD will even take herself off and sit on the spot sometimes and tells me she's gone to calm down!

I think parents just have to use whatever method works for them and their child.

I have never sent my children to their room for bad behaviour as they both have always slept really well and I don't want their bedrooms associated with being naughty. I have friends who have used the "go to your room" method and it has worked for them.

yellowvan · 07/07/2010 08:57

Don't like the naughty step, but then i don't like 'dog training' style behaviourist behaviour management techniques generally (sticker charts etc). I like the "how to talk..." book, natural consequences as described above and a bit of reasoning/reparation. (you'd prob find me vair annoying DS luckily quite a rules stickler, so this approach has been fine for me.

SloanyPony · 07/07/2010 09:05

I love the how to talk book (though I'd rewrite it in the Queen's English)...

I like natural consequences when they are enough.

I think the send to your room thing can work for older children who dont have any sleep issues or going to bed issues not so much as a punishment perhaps but to calm down or to separate warring sibings

For under 2's who have made a victim out of one of their friends, I prefer getting them to say sorry and give the friend a cuddle over sitting them on a step - yet for over 2's/2 and a halfs, this can become very ineffective and a consequence is needed when hitting/biting is involved.

I'm getting a bit fed up of one of my friends who is still doing the "say sorry and give him a cuddle" when my 3 year old gets thumped for the 5th/6th/7th time that morning - its not working, he knows he can get away with it if he just says sorry after, its my child who is copping it not him. I think she should leave a social gathering one day so HE misses out and realises that if he can't behave, he can't play and that if he hits his friends, he can't have friends until he has an attitude readjustment.

Oh that was a bit of a rant. She's well and truly stuck in the 18 months old developmental rut and she forgets he's twice as old now and he's MOVED ON...