to take DS out of nursery: update

[griffaloschild]

Sorry to be boring (and apols for the length of this post) - I hassled you about this a couple of weeks ago when I asked for your advice on whether I should change his routine to fit in with nursery. Your advice is so good I couldn't help myself.

So a quick update, DS has been going to nursery for 3 months (is now 14m) and the reports are that he is still not settled. He is not happy, when I hand him over he has a look of sheer panic on his face, grabs me as tight as he can and cries. When I pick him up his eyes are red (although isn't usually crying at that moment) and he is grumpy for the rest of the day. Main probs are lack of sleep and the fact that he needs too much attention (according to staff) (I agree he does need quite a bit of input but surely this is normal in a percentage of children?). I tried changing his sleeping routine and basically it failed. Since then things seem to have gone from bad to worse.

When I ring to ask how he is they have a standard line 'there have been some tears', what does this mean? When I try to get to the bottom of it - well I can't get to the bottom of it basically.

I arrived the other day early and peered through the window I saw DS being reprimanded (I don't have a problem with this in general). They said that he had been trying to get through the door into the nappy changing area and wouldn't stay in the main play area. This is behind a little fence with gates - why don't they just shut the gate?

We had been wondering where his key worker was and today DH asked - she has been promoted and doesn't work in his room anymore. Would you expect to be told about this? Also other 'new' people now work in his room and we didn't know about this either.

Last time I picked him up, I went to leave and realised his empty bottle wasn't in his bag (on most occasions something or other is missing so I have to check and go back to claim it). It turned out this they hadn't given him his milk that day - they apologised but this isn't the first time it has happened.

A minor thing is that he always has food all over his face, in his hair and on his clothes, when I pick him up. This wouldn't bother me at all if I thought he was in a loving envirnoment - just thought I add it in for good measure.

Other children are always crying (really hard - red faced, veins in neck etc) and they just seem to ignor them. On one occasion three children were holding there arms out to me to be picked up. (heart-breaking - especially when I wonder if my DS is doing the same?)

I realise all the above are not serious complaints and would be happy to overlook them if he was happy (other care seems fine). The upshot of all this is that I have looked into sending him to a CM. We are meeting two this week and just wondered if you think this is a good move, any advice on how to choose one, or if you think that all the above is normal and I am being totally U.

Many thanks xx

It sounds pretty serious to me I would move him and also complain to the relevant authorities

At DS's nursery they have a monthly form that they send out to you to get you to fill in and ask questions on and they send it back with the answers the next week. Also you can tell them stuff about your DC. It's called something like My Unique Journey or something, but it might only be once they go into the Tweenie room?

They never documented sleeps/feeds, but they always let me know verbally, and they documented nappy changes, but nothing that you could take home with you.

Not sure if that's "normal", but my experience anyway.

Wow, that sounds awful. Have used a number of nurseries over the years and wouldn't accept that level of care. Get him out!

For all mine, all under 2's had a book setting out what they did that day, food, milk, nappies etc. Never seen any child go uncomforted for than a few moments. I'd report your concerns and leave. There are good nurseries out there.

A satisfactory on a CM report could be just that she is not up to date with all teh EYFS, if you read the report the last section should tell you which bits are satisfactory/good/ etc..

Maybe some one ion here can recommend a CM in your area, somewhere under the CM threads there is a vacancy thread.

If not contact your local council, and ask for the Family Information Service, they will have a list of local CM's.

NOT SERIOUS???????????

Dear lord. I wouldn't leave my child there for one second. Frankly I think you should firebomb the place (Preferably when the children have left) How can you think for a nanosecond you shouldn't worry about those things?

Sounds terrible - I've worked in several nurseries, some great and one a bit rubbish - but all better than this one by the sounds of it!

I'd go and meet some CMs, read their Ofsted reports and check what they were given satisfactory/good/outstanding for rather than just the grade - it might be things that don't really matter to you.

I suppose when I say serious - I mean he hasn't been injured (as far as I know). When I have told people about this stuff they don't seem to think it is unusual...I thought I was going mad.

Me and DH have been skiving off work to take him out early or not send him at all just recently

I would move him asap. I had a horrid experience with a Nursery once, and moved DS to a CM, then his pre school. He changed his behaviour completely and blossomed.

Not giving him his milk is a disgrace, by the way.

Childminders have to do a hell of a lot of paperwork these days.

I know two well whom I consider to be "Bloody Outstanding" yet their Ofsted ratings are only Good and Satisfactory for various things.

CM should be able to provide references.

Go and see them both. Trust your instincts.

Also I always think it's how they are with the DCs that matters the most so not always a problem if they are a "bit short" with you. Although sometimes it is

DS is the same age and at a great nursery. Every time I collect him he's being cuddled or played with.

Totally trust your instincts. I had the same situation with my eldest last year and I wish I'd moved him sooner.

And I reckon anything stronger than a gentle "no" for discipline at 14 months is wrong wrong wrong.

OP this is not good! Actually it is really crap. I use a childminder, have done since DS was 8mo and he is now often so happy that he cries when I pick him up !

It sounds like a crap nursery and a 14mo your DS doesn't have to be in that structured environment. Have you looked into childminders? I'm aware that if you're in London they are hard to come by.

It sounds shocking
take him out!! yanbu @ all

Don't go by OFSTED please, just go round with your DS and see how Mthey are with him. Have a list of questions ready, but go with your instincts. I was so lucky in that the 1st CM I visited just did it for me and DS, she seemed so assured and confident and loving. I will say that I and DS are extremely lucky to have her. She was only "good" according to OFSTED before DS went to her but recently had a new assessment and is (as all her parents know) outstanding. Don't judge by this as a lot of it is about paperwork, not about love and care.

My ds has been going to his cm since he was a year old.

When I met her I just went with my gut instinct and it was definetly someone I would be happy to leave my child with.

She helped and encouraged with all his milestones, we have the same attitude to his diet, discipline etc.

He's been with her for 4 years now and im still really happy with her.

You'll know, first impressions count and by the sounds of it you don't like one of them already.

We've had a brilliant experience using a CM. I would choose a CM over a nursery or nanny anyday.

We looked for a CM with other children. This gave us the best of both worlds - DS gets to socialise with other children, but still gets personal care and attention not usually possible in a nursery. I had nannys when I was little, and I found it quite a lonely experience. It was important to me that DS had other kids to hang out with regularly - not just at groups or whatever.

We used the website www.childcare.co.uk to find our CM, and now we're moving we're using it again, it's worked well for us anyway.

Although I agree with larks35 that CMs rated "good" by OFSTED can be of a very high standard (it's hard to get an outstanding), I do think that CMs given the "outstanding" rating deserve it! Our CM has been rated outstanding. Yes there's a lot of paperwork, but I like having the daily record she gives us detailing what DS has been up to, for example. I like it that she's organised, as well as extremely loving and fun. She truly is outstanding!

Where we're moving too, there is no outstanding CM locally, and we're very happy to choose our next CM from the ones rated "good". But I would put someone rated "outstanding" to the top of my shortlist in a shot! (subject to us meeting them and getting on of course)

FWIW I think you know you should take your child out of this nursery. You'll feel much better when you've done it. If it was me I'd complain about them too.

HTH

grifalloschild - this sounds very similar to the rubbish nursery dd1 was in. I still feel sad thinking about it six years on.
She was there for more than a year, I really wish I had taken her out earlier.
At the time I was coping with her by myself, couldn't drive and it seemed like the only option.
I also was really against putting her with a childminder, just didn't want one person to have sole charge of her as I was worried how they would treat her if they had a bad day. However, with dd2 I did go down the childminder route and I am so happy.
I really understand now what a huge difference it is for a very young child. There is no constant changing of staff, no being penned into a small room and being let out at certain times, less illness. The staff at dd1's nursery were young, poorly paid girls who used to stand around chatting. I think morale was low and I don't think they really cared too much about the children. Too many incidents to tell you about and this is a nursery that got "good" for its ofsted report.
Second time around dd2 is so much happier and settled in incredibly fast despite her being a very clingy girl.
From someone who completely distrusted childminders(used to read mumsnet and people going on about how good cm's were and think it was all an exaggeration), I have become a complete convert-ofcourse you need to find the right one which isn't always easy. Good luck, I know it can be really hard.

Thanks for all your comments it is really helpful.

Would you think it was a worry that one of the CM's I've looked into has been rated at only satisfactory for everything? It makes it look like she only just scraped through - the report doesn't shead any light on this and from what I can see it is barely any different to the one which has been rated as 'good' for everything.

For the record, DH read my post last night and thinks I over-egged things (he isn't as worried about all this as me). Particularly he thinks the other babies crying thing was a bit strong - but it is perfectly true that that what I documented did happen. He says its not the case when he goes. Everything else has happened too.

Also, to throw the cat amongst the pigeons DS was dropped off at nursery by DH this morning and didn't cry! and the 'new' lady in his room seems be be a lot nicer and more communicative than anyone else.

Why is life so difficult and confusing!?

DD has been to 3 nurseries between age of 6 months and 3 years; moved through necessity rather then choice IFYSWIM.

What you have described sounds unacceptable and you right to challenge it. Frankly the 'responses' you have had so far sound terrible.

Whenever I arrived unannounced, DD was happy/playing/sleeping. There were occasional tears in the baby room, but through a little slip to the floor or frustration - not 'unhappy' tears, and difficult to avoid. The idea of not giving a bottle is shocking.

Having used 3 nurseries, one of the things in common with all of them was that they had a good age range of staff and not a huge staff turnover. Some staff change is inevitable, but it shouldn't be all the time, and you should be informed. All the baby rooms had older, more experienced staff (generally with children of their own) working in there, as well as the younger staff just out of college. Some of the ladies still babysit for us occasionally and text to see how dd is - she is always delighted to see them (and was as a baby - big grins and giggles on handover.)

I think what would swing the decision for me would be if I found the "right" childminder.
My childminder doesn't have an outstanding ofsted report, but I knew soon as I met her that she was the right one as she was so caring and loving with the children. I think I would have gone for a poor nursery over a poor childminder, but when you find a good childminder, personally I think that is better than a good nursery for younger children.
I think the thing with nursery is that you become used to the poor care and then just go along with it(as long as nothing drastic happens). DD1 stopped crying after 6 weeks and appeared relatively happy, but I think that's because she just became conditioned to going there and making the best of it and I became conditioned to her not being looked after properly.It's only now that I can compare that I look back and think that I should have done something as it wasn't acceptable. Saying that we did all survive and dd1 is a happy, outgoing child, but with hindsight I would have done things differently with her.

Agree with what Balloon slayer said btw.

Do move him-he is much too little to be 'reprimanded'.My dgs [now 16 months] goes to a lovely cm and is such a happy,sunny little boy.It is heart breaking to think of those babies holding their arms up for attention.

Gruffalo,

i'm a nursery manager and i do not think the nursery sounds very good, although i have to say i have come across nurseries like this in my time. Regardless of what you Dh thinks (not for a moment suggesting his opinion doesn't count) you have lost the relationship of trust with the nursery and to be honest will always question if it the right decision to leave him there. In your position I would move my DS.

With reference to ofsted reports i would only use these as a guide to 'serious' failings. In my experience of nursery ones they are not always very telling, we have an outstanding nursery down the road i would not leave my cat in, and a lovely satisfactory one locally that I would be happy for my Ds to attend. Ofsted place different emphasis on certain areas and these are not always whats important for families. Meet both child minders and see which one you click with.

Good luck

sweet jesus take him out NOW
childcare does not have to be like this
please dont prevarticate poor little man
there are some lovely CM out there, use one! and take parental leave if needs be to cover until you have one

"Is it normal for nurseries not to ask anything about your child?"

When we placed DS with our childminder, she asked about his routine, his likes and dislikes, what he eats and how, what he was capable of at the time (e.g. eating with cutlery / climbing stairs) and dietary requirements, allergies etc etc.

It gave me confidence that she really wanted to do her best for DS, and work with us, and I was right, she did

Please don't dither any longer, take him out. You are his parent, he's relying on you to stand up for him, he can't do it for himself. What are you waiting for? Something really bad to happen?! Sorry I don't mean that as harsh as it sounds! Just trying to encourage you to have strength in your convictions!

It is because of places like this that I don't send my son to a nursery. I briefly worked in nurseries like the one you describe and the stuff I saw put me off completely. If it's worrying when you're there, just think what it could be like when you're not.

Your instincts are telling you it's not right for him. I'm sure you'll feel much better I'm sure once you've done it.

Even if the new lady is nice, it's not the same as having a personal relationship with a CM who is happy to discuss your DS and what's best for them with you, rather than giving you the brush off.

About the satisfactory rating, personally I would have to really, really like them to go for it. And there would have to be no ones rated good locally. Have you looked at www.childcare.co.uk ? It's really easy to see who's working in your area.

HTH