to think that the Coalition goverment are using the excuse of the deficit to cut benefits and support for the poorest members of our society?

[Jazzicatz]

It just seems to me the Tory led Coalition Govt are doing what they always do but trying to hide behind the excuse of reducing the deficit. AIBU?

why do they need the winter fuel allowance if they live in Spain or somewhere like that!

Can we really start dictating where people live? Do we really want to go down that road?

No one is saying dictate where people live. Talk about jumping to conclusions!

Just that you shouldn't be able to claim UK benefits when you don't live in teh UK or the children you claim on don't live in the UK.

There was a thread about it here, too, ssd, and apparently, Spain gets very cold in winter.

Yes we are. If you tell somebody that they can only have any money if they live in a certain place. That's just wrong.

That's exactly true, boiledegg, again the point I was trying to make. As I said in my first post, loads of people don't want their money being spent on other people (DM readers). Whereas others don't mind their money being spent on the poor, as long as the poor don't come anywhere near them (Guardian readers). That's a joke, by the way. Probably a crap one.

Part of the problem as I see it, is the disparity of pay in this country. People should be paid properly for responsible jobs and then they can be taxed more and the revenues spent sensibly. My political inclinations are absolutely all over the place and I am neither one thing nor the other, and this will sound odd, give what I've said about champagne socialists and Labour, but there's a book by Polly Toynbee called Hard Work in which she makes the same point. People aren't paid enough and then the state has to end up paying them more to give them a liveable income. This may be a well-known book amongst MNers - I don't know and don't care much! But she talked sense (in the book at least).

Boiledegg you are right the mindset is very different. Taxes are high (and of course people mind paying them) but they are for everyone's benefits so there is no need to have private healthcare, private fee paying schools etc so everyone is paying for public services that they use.

'Yes we are. If you tell somebody that they can only have any money if they live in a certain place. That's just wrong.'

Wrong how? They are free to come and go in the EU as they please and work and earn money.

How on Earth is it wrong to say, no public funds to be paid out via the British taxpayer when, well, you don't live in the UK and/or on children who don't?

So the British taxpayer is supposed to foot the bill for everyone all over the world?

Get real!

Taking peoples' passports is dictating where they live. Not cutting off teh gravy train when you have left the country.

I dont mind my taxes being spent on those who genuinely need help and who are genuinely disabled, what I cannot stand are those who think its my duty to take care of them when they are able to work. Instead they sit down all day watching daytime tv, procreating and waiting for the money to come to them. Some are devoid of a work ethic sorry but its reality, not all some and this has to be sorted out. Ahhh and those dubbed the 'spermanators' who lay down and make babies and run off without a care in the world leaving people like my dh paying for it, when his principle responsibility is us not them. This makes my

Yes fat cat saleries for MPs should stop toom £300 just to turn up is tbh, and those who live abroad and claim benefits, did not know people do that

Now who's jumping to conclusions? Yes, I really do want the British Taxpayer to give money to everyone in the world...

There already are rules as to who is entitled to public funds.

I truly fail to see what difference it makes where those people live.

If a person retires and wants to live in another country, why should they be penalised for it? Why? There is no logic to it.

'If a person retires and wants to live in another country, why should they be penalised for it? Why? There is no logic to it.'

How it is penalising them to say they can't get UK benefits if they don't live in the UK?

They can still draw their state pension, whic is not a public fund, and whatever other pension they have.

If they are in the EU, they may be eligible to the benefits of their country of residence, same as EU nationals who come here are entitled to UK ones when they live in the UK.

That sounds perfectly logical.

UK benefits for UK residents.

Spanish benefits for Spanish residents.

And on and on.

Duh.

"Duh" is not a coherant argument.

We have a law, which states that people, goods and services must be allowed to move freely across the EU.

The effect of this law, is that we are not allowed to treat say, a person from Poland who comes here to work any different to a UK national. Therefore, they will be entitled to the same tax credits etc. Do you understand this?

If we start treating other EU nationals differently, we will be contravening European Law.

We ARE a European Country. That is not going to change.

'We have a law, which states that people, goods and services must be allowed to move freely across the EU.'

We have plenty of laws that get changed all the time.

Other EU nations don't allow their nationals to claim benefits on themselves or people who don't like in that nation.

Other EU nations put limits on how other EU nationals can move into and out of their nations and even, in the case of France, require things like vaccination of children before taking advantage of some services like their education system.

Therefore, it's entirely possible for our law paying out benefits to people who don't live here to change.

Do you understand this?

There need to be cuts.

I fail to see why people living abroad in receipt of benefits should be exempted from this.

Sorry, live not like.

Oh, and people and goods and services are allowed to move freely, within reason, there are even constraints to that, as has been pointed out (there's a limit on the amount of certain goods, like tobacco and alcohol, for example, a person can bring back and commercial restrictions as well, fishing quotas, etc.).

That's a separate issue from paying out benefits/public funds to people who do not live in the UK.

OP-YANBU

bankers fuck up, the poorest in society will have to pay for it

the tories are loving an excuse to slash public services

this country is going to go downhill rapidly

That law is not going to change, it forms part of the bedrock treaty of the EU. It is not optional.

You really think it is that easy to start rewriting the Treaty of sodding Rome???

Do you have an example of a welfare system, in the EU that you would like us to emulate?

Do you want us out of the EU entirely? A return to Splendid Isolation perhaps? Or is everything you are saying a total knee-jerk reaction?

Some other EU countries do pay benefits for those not living in the country but I agree with you ExPat UK benefits for UK residents. StuckInTheMiddle no contravention of EU laws there.

effectively all benefits will be cut as benefits are to be index-linked to the consumer prices index instead of the older retail prices index as they are currently. So vulnerable people already struggling to make ends meet will find it harder and harder as their benefits will not increase year by year as much as they would have done.

It is not a seperate issue at all. It is the reason we do it!

Mingg, you're wrong am afraid.

A Polish person comes here to work, we are not allowed to treat him any differently to a British Person. That is one of the tenants of the free movement of people. This includes any benefits.

If a retired person wants to live in Spain, why should they penalised? In reality, they are actually doing the tax payer a favour by moving and not using the NHS etc.

StuckInTheMiddle - it is a separate issue. Free movement of goods/people does not require UK to pay benefits to those who do not live here (bar pension etc but that is not based on the Maastricht Treaty anyway).

OP - YABU - afaik they are in fact mainly helping lower income families (e.g. increasing tax free allowance) and protecting tax credits for those on low incomes.

Yes they are very sensibly looking at cutting benefits for those who are able to work but don't or get paid huge sums of housing benefit which is unfair to those who work very hard and cannot afford to rent/buy somewhere bigger.

Why should those of us who pay loads of tax have to support those who refuse to work or pretend to be sick? As another poster said in the past people would move around to find work and would do any job whereas now there is a culture of entitlement and not responsibility. So many people refuse to take jobs because they consider those jobs beneath them/unpleasant/unsocial working hours etc - well fine they may be but you have to start somewhere and if you're able to work you should do. Benefits should only be there for those who are actually incapable of work or as a safety net for a short period of time if someone loses their job.

It does actually, it is the reason we pay CTC to a person who works here while his children live in another EU country.

No, StuckInTheMiddle, I am not wrong. I am not saying that EU nationals living in the UK should be treated any differently and to so that would in fact be illegal and against the Maastricht Treaty. However paying benefits to those NOT living in the UK is perfectly legal.

Not in the example I gave above it isn't.

That is why a non-uk national can claim CTC for children living in another country.