to think that if your child is attacking you, you should stop them?

[tutusare4]

Went to see a friend today, she had another friend there too who had her 4 yo dd with her.

At some point, the dd started launching herself at her Mother, scratching her arms (drawing blood) nipping and hitting her hard. The Mother stood there saying "x, stop doing that. X, stop doing that." over and over again, but didn't actually restrain the child, who carried on for a good 10 mins. My friend went to help, but was told in no uncertain terms that she was dealing with it fine. When it was all over, the woman didn't try to tell her dd that what she did had hurt her, or try to say to never do that again, or anything.

I hope I don't come across as being judgey, as I accept that everyone parents their dc's differently, and that's fine, but, why did she not just hold on to her dd's arms? She ended up with deep scratches all over her arms, and bruises from the nipping, and old scratches and bruises could be seen.

Why would anyone let a 4yo do that to them?

I've seen that a few times. Very very wimpy parenting in my book.

How is a child supposed to know what's acceptable if they're not told clearly and with sanctions?

Er no I wouldn't. I agree with you but none of your business how she choses to parent her child.

I know it's none of my business.

I was just shocked and baffled that someon could let their child hurt them, make them bleed, and possibly scar them!

Pathetic, to let a 4yo rule the roost like that

Not your business though

There could be half a dozen reasons why the parent allowed the child to hurt her, some of them might be grounded in good practice.
Or it might be wimpy parenting.
What did the other parent do afterwards?
Did the child suddenly stop and do something else unrelated like wander off?
Did the mother grab the child and leave, or carry on as if nothing out of the ordinary had happened?
How well does your friend know her and her daughter?

Who cares if it isn't your business, you witnessed something and are commenting on it like many others would.

This mother is creating problems for herself. Child will be a bloody horror when its older.

maybe they've tried the getting angry, and the punishing and the restraining and it hasn't worked so she is trying the "x stop that" and giving as little attention to it as possible??

It's bloody stupid parenting but as long as she's not attacking you or your child there's not much point saying anything.

I don't think there's anything wrong with judging her though. She's wrong.

I don't know why anyone would let a 4 year old do that - it's perplexing. It's not helping the child learn about how you live and get on with other people.

Our job as parents is essentially to make ourselves redundant - to teach our children how to behave in order to survive in the world on their own. God knows how this child will turn out, but I don't think other people will stand for attacks like that.

But you can physically restrain a child whilst still not paying attention to the behaviour.

If DS hits/scratches me, I (gently but firmly) hold onto his wrists until he calms down.

I don't hurt him, and I don't get angry.

Letting your child hurt you for ten minutes without trying to stop them seems a bit mad.

My son has asd and attacks me when he gets frustrated, there is no way in hell I would sit there and allow him to do it tho, the rules must be reinforced that hurting is not allowed.

It's the kid I feel sorry for tbh, she is storing up all kinds of hell for him !

I went on a restraint course so that I could control my son without hurting him.
Another friend couldn't bring herself to do it, and if her child didn't hit her, then he punched, scratched and bit himself to the point of bleeding and scarring.

Or she could just be a pathetic and ineffectual parent with an unrestrained and violent child of her own making.
Without knowing them, you can only judge inaccurately, without all the information.

Actually, to some extent I think it is the business of others. A child who behaves like that at home, with no consequences, it likely to find school very difficult. Their behaviour could then impact significantly on others in their class.

Got absolutely no idea what to do about it though.

Also should acknowledge that some kids do have some SEN that is not obvious to onlookers and "normal" methods of behaviour management are not that effective so parents may have to find other ways of dealing with inappropriate behaviour. However, in the case the OP described, even that were true, sounds like the mother needed to find something / anything more effective.

I think it's the wrong approach too. It's not doing the child any favours long term. They will get a big shock when they try that sort of thing on other people!

My eldest was once really violent. I used to restrain him, legs round his legs, arms round his body, head tucked in behind him (I forgot this once and he threw his head back and my nose splattered!). Now I could have said oh, it's because he's autistic, he can't heeeelp it. (god knows I heard that enough!) But it was not true of him and taking that attitude would not have been in his best interests.

He is no longer violent.

Parents have to think about where they want their child to be in adulthood, who they want them to be and who and where they will be if the parents don't do a good job!

When that child turns round and attacks a teacher and all hell breaks loose, or they attack another child and get a thumping back, it'll be who'd have thought it.

What did the other parent do afterwards? - do you mean the friend I originally went to see? Once the attack stopped, the mother just carried on as if nothing happened, whilst dabbing off blood with a hanky, I don't think my friend thought it was appropriate to bring up the subject.

Did the child suddenly stop and do something else unrelated like wander off? -The child stopped because a cat jumped into the garden, and that was more interesting.

Did the mother grab the child and leave, or carry on as if nothing out of the ordinary had happened? - the mother did nothing. While the child was scratching etc., she repeated over and over to stop it, when it finished, she said nothing to the child.

How well does your friend know her and her daughter? - She knows her very well - I think they met at antenatal classes, and have seen a lot of each other since. She has since said that this goes on regularly, at toddler groups, playgroups etc, and the child is allowed to carry on attacking until she decides she's had enough. The mother just puts up with it.

YANBU - the parent should stop the child from attacking them. And, in theory, whilst technically it's none of your business, the bad behaviour of the child and lack of sanctions applied by the parent will have a detrimental impact on those around the child. School, friends, the wider community as the child gets older - all of these will be effected by the child's bad behaviour.

neolara - school will be a problem, as she does lash out at other children. The only difference is that teachers/play leaders restrain her.

My friend is worried, as her ds will start school at the same time, at the same school.

Has your friend asked the other mother why she just puts up with it? Do you know if she's tried any other ways of dealing with it?

I agree Hecate, and mine isn't violent any more either.
I remember the total body wrap well, and using your weight as a counterbalance to drop him, although he was taller than me.
It sounds as if the parent needs to access professional help, but if she doesn't want to face the truth then she won't ask and won't get. School will have to act if the child is like this with others, mot just her mother.

Not your weight, my weight.

RockSock, that makes sense, as the child is already a pariah at playgroup. There are 2 children with the same names there (lets say Ellie), and she is known as "Smacking Ellie".

She ends up by herself all the time, as none of the others want to be near her, the play leaders struggle with her.

My friend has always made an effort to get her ds to play with her, but the bottom line is that he's scared of her.

Um, don't know. DD used to attack me, I have driven home with her hanging off my hair, but this was a reaction to the violence she saw from her father towards both her and I, the best way to deal with it at the time was to ignore. tHIs was on advice from a cousellor. She never went for anyone else though, always me.
However, unless you know her well enough to know why she chooses this method of dealing with it I would refrain from passing judgement.

I didn't tell many people why I was choosing to ignore her extreme behaviour.

Using my weight to restrain her child is bordering on abuse

Ah well, you lose a child but you gain a hearthrug.

I could restrain a whole school of children with my weight
The offers there if anyone needs it

AFAIK, the head of the playgroup has spoken to her about her behaviour, and given her some ideas as to how to deal with it, but she doesn't take any advice. My friend tried to give her advice once, but it was met with complete denial that there was a problem.