to be disturbed that my DD was shown this anti-abortion video

[Tanga]

DD (15) came home saying that she'd been shown a video of 'the baby's view of abortion' in her RE class today. She was pretty horrified (both for herself and on behalf of one of her friends who has had an abortion)which I'd guess would be a fairly typical response, but she went on to make some wildly innacurate comments about the proceedure (some very graphic so I'll spare you) so I asked her what it was she'd actually been shown.

It's called 'The Silent Scream' (written in Hammer horror style lettering) and I've googled it and am fairly appalled. It's (IMO) an anti-abortion piece of propaganda made in the '80's and is riddled with innaccuracies.

Is this a normal video to show a class of teenagers? It was presented as fact, BTW, and as 'the most humane method of abortion' by the RE teacher.

Exactly BAFE.

DR, that's disturbing.

"Am sure there's lots of pro-choice stuff out there"

Are you sure?

Or do you just wish it were so?

And calling it "pro-choice" instead of "pro-abortion" is also sugar coating it.

It is what it is. Accept it.

bubblemummy - I don't think anyone is saying that there is a nice way. Hav eyou watched the video? It's massively inaccurate and unnecessarily disturbing.
I'm not pro-abortion but I wouldn't show that video in a school.
The facts should be presented the same way other facts are - accurately!
Abortion isn't nice however it is performed but not all abortions are performed on teenage "careless" mums. There are lots performed on people who have found out that their baby is going to be horrendously ill and in pain before dying a horrible death.
Imaging watching that video when you are 15 then when you are 30 and blissfully happy because you are pregnant with your first child. then you find out that the poor little foetus barely has a chance of survival and will suffer greatly. Would the decision to terminate be made easier by seeing such a graphic video?
A factual video/talk would probably stick in your mind just as well, without making you feel like you are a monster for doing what is potentially the right thing for your baby.

Before I get flamed for my views:
I have one DD - whilst pregnant I had the scans but NONE of the abnormality tests as I did not feel that I could terminate even if something was wrong and saw no point in knowing. (thankfully, she is healthy)
I had a terrible pregnancy. I was in and out of hospital like a yoyo. I was told at 9 weeks that I may suffer all the way through my pregnancy and was told that I may wish to consider a termination - It was never even a consideration in my mind. I suffered right up 'til the day she was born.
5 of my friends have had terminations which I have supported them though. Most through stupidity on their part rather than serious issues. When someone is going through such a serious time, piling on the guilt doesn't help!
My sister cannot have children. She is also having a total nightmare trying to adopt. Her best friend recently had an abortion.

I still don't think the video should be shown

Oh my, I'm finding these descriptinos way too upsetting
best move away

I accept it. When I had to make that choice I knew exactly what my choices were and exactly what choice was best for me. I am pro-choice.

I think there are many many women on mumsnet who will have had to make a decision to terminate a pregnancy for many different reasons and that is their own business, and how they choose to view it is their own personal business. It's not always a difficult decision, why make it more difficult by labeling it horrific?

Pro choice is not the same thing as pro abortion.
Pro abortion would mean advocating abortions for all women,or the majority of women when pro choice means supporting women's right to choose what they want to do when they find themselves pregnant either continue with the pregnancy or terminate the pregnancy.

Can we call you anti choice?

Sigh,

Ok, abortion isn't horrific. It's nice.

Yes funkychunky, from the descriptions i'm pretty sure it's the same one we saw in school. I don't like it but I think any video that shows an abortion is going to be disturbing whether the victim is referred to as a baby, a child or a foetus. I am aware not all abortions are irresponsible teenage mums but from your own experience there are a lot of irresponsible adults out there as well who may have acted a bit more responsibly or have thought twice about having an abortion if they had seen exactly what it involved.

That's appalling. I feel SO SO sorry for the girl in the class who had had one. I'm an adult who has previously had an abortion and I can't bring myself to watch it.

How predictable that the anti-choicers (see, two can play at the misnomer game) have to come on and be so deeply insensitive.

Funky: though I'm sure you supported your friends as best you could, your disapproval seeps through every word you type. I'd be surprised if they hadn't picked up on it.

My abortion wasn't a nice choice to make but I absolutely refuse to be made to feel guilty about it by a crazed bunch of anti-choicers whose methods appear to consist of terrifying teenage girls, possibly into making an unwise and life-changing decision.

Foetus's under 24 weeks don't feel pain, they aren't conscious and they don't scream - so the video is bollocks. It's certainly not representative of the vast majority of abortions, carried out in the first trimester and often with drugs rather than a surgical procedure.

we were shown the silent scream in RE at school, at least I'm sure that was the name of the video
from my peer group i'd certainly say it had no bearing on the numbers of abortions

I think it is horrific to show this video. If for no other reason, as SirBoobalot says, it would be very upsetting for girls who had miscarried, and for those who miscarried in the future. I've never had a miscarriage, but friends who have felt guilty even though they were of course blameless - I think this video would make it worse. If for no other reason, it's an awful thing to show to young women.

I had an abortion when I was 18. I felt (and feel) I was pushed into it by the GP and my parents, so I am biased. However, I reckon that there are a lot of people like me, people who didn't really want an abortion, but who felt pressured not to have a baby. Some, like me, probably wanted that baby a lot. It would be much, much better to make adoption a more socially acceptable option. Two GPs actively encouraged me that adoption is more traumatic than abortion. I think that was very bad. If the pro-choice league were really committed, I think they would put more time into commending adoption, rather than beating up vulnerable pregnant women.

Just had to come back to this.
So, when you know that your child has no chance of surviving more than a few minutes after birth and will die in pain and you have to make that choice....

I just don't think videos like this are helpful.

DD1 died in utero so we didn't have to make this choice, but we might have done.

I'm sorry that you felt pressured into it LDR. I believe that no one has the right to influence and pressure a woman to keep,adopt or terminate.

However adoption is not what I'd describe as a viable alternative for all women to abortion.
It can be as painful and difficult for women as a termination.
It comes with it's own issues and implications and isn't the right choice for everyone,just as termination isn't right for everyone, though it does work for some women.

LRD. I'm not really sure how the video can be compared to a miscarriage. I had a miscarriage and was upset by the loss of the baby, I didn't even think about the video I'd seen as a teenager.

So sorry that you felt pressured into such a life changing decsion.

SlackSally. I'm not really sure how being truthful is insensitive. Tbh I find mumsnet upsettingly prochoice. How sensitive is that to my beliefs?

LetThereBeRock - I'm sorry, I wasn't thinking. I do know that adoption isn't always an option and can be hugely painful. But I think in some cases, it is discouraged by doctors when it could be promoted.

I do understand that many terminations happen completely against the will of the parents, and I'm sorry for being tactless.

Slacksally - I don't disapprove I'm just not pro-abortion! I couldn't do it but I would never judge someone else for it.
I certainly could not ever justify showing someone such a vile video if they were considering abortion. I hadn't even considered the thought of those that see the video then go on to have miscarriages according to the video, a foetus of just 10 weeks FEELS PAIN! If it is being miscarried would it feel the same pain??? Absolutely not in my opinion!!!! Why make a women at 15 years of age feel like if she has an unsuccessful pregnancy for ANY reason feel worse than they already do???
It's not acceptable to show a film like that for any reason - even to provoke debate.
Strangely, one of my friends that had an abortion wasn't going to tell her mum about it. the reason being that her mum was deeply religious. I managed to convince her to tell her as I felt that she would receive support. She told her mum and her mum took her to church with her to speak with a support group!!! The support group was there for any issues but there message on abortion was that a baby is not a baby until it is born and if the baby wasn't meant to be born then that was god's choice and the decision was only hers as god sometimes sends obstacles to test us and make us stronger. Now don't get me started on religion but I thought that this was actually very nice and supportive for her and gave her great comfort in making her decision.
the friend in question was not a daft child, she was 22 and had been in a stable relationship. Just before finding out she was pregnant (which was an accident) she found out that her other half had been messing about and had committed a robbery also (really) she had kicked him out and was in the middle of a long, professional degree. She did not feel she could cope alone and made her decision. Other half then burgled her (!), stalked her and beat her new partner up when they got together. great way to bring up a child!!!

Watching an abortion is pretty grim, and I'll happily explain what's involved for anyone who wants to know. But Silent Scream is manipulative and misleading. From memory, one of its problems is that it suggests the foetuses it shows are much younger than they actually are. Most abortions are carried out at a stage when the foetus can barely be seen with the naked eye, and certainly doesn't resemble a baby. But Silent Scream shows images of much older, stillborn foetuses in order to encourage us to identify with them as babies.

Now, I don't need to describe a foetus as a 'bunch of cells' or refuse to call it a baby, to justify my pro-choice status. Similarly, I respect that if you are genuinely anti-abortion, it doesn't make any difference to you either whether the foetus/baby looks like a bunch of cells or a newborn. But the Silent Scream recognises that, for many people, their perspective on abortion is very strongly influenced by their perception of the foetus as a 'real baby'. This is probably particularly true of teenagers, who are often highly principled and rather sentimental. So it is highly manipulative to show them pictures of third trimester stillborn babies and pretend this is the reality of abortion.

In my view, teenagers deserve to get the real facts on abortion, and support to discuss and develop their own views on its ethics and its possible place in their own life. I think it's entirely wrong to show them videos that are just designed to elicit a shock/disgust reaction. Equally, if you showed them a video of a typical abortion they would see nothing they recognised as a baby - would that be helpful, to pretend to them that this is just another minor procedure?

Well, leaving aside our different interpretations of 'truth', of course being truthful can be insensitive. Say someone's DP was killed in a car accident, would you expect the doctor concerned to go into detail about which parts of the body had been severed? How disfigured he was? How much pain he was in? I should bloody hope not.

I'm not sure how you would expect a community of several hundred thousand users to be sensitive to your beliefs?

bubbley - I have never had a miscarriage, but I don't see how it would help to focus on a foetus's pain, as this video does.

I can see your point LRD but I'm not in favour of promoting anything,only in favour of all options being listed and discussed in some detail,and just the facts,no propagand.

I don't want any pressure to be put on the woman at all to make a particular choice.

Bubbley, are you anti abortion in all circumstances then?

Propaganda sorry.

LetThere - you may be right. I'm not the best judge. I just feel that, at the moment, all the options are not listed and discussed. Certainly with me, and I assume with other patients of my two GPs, adoption was very quickly shot down as the 'bad' option while abortion was promoted. I am completely pro-choice, but I honestly don't think adoption is generally promoted as a valid option.

Exactly, Hester.

I can't remember whether or not what is involved in a typical abortion at different stages was discussed at school. I do know that the way I found out was being told in a matter of fact way. It's not nice, it's not pretty - but you don't need to see a video of it to realise this. And TBH, there are videos online of pretty much anything, if someone really wants to look it up, they can do.

I know that medical/surgical abortions were not discussed, because I remember at college someone telling me his ex-girlfriend had had an abortion and taken a pill, but he said that he later found out that isn't how you have an abortion, and I believed him/agreed with him based on what I knew at the time. It was only much later that I came across mention of a medical vs surgical abortion and I realised that in fact there are different types.