Is NICE going too far?

[Sal321]

This BBC news story is about a suggestion by NICE (national institute for clinical excellence) that all pregnant women should be breath tested for smoking at their first MW appointment. I know I don't smoke, why should I be tested? I appreciate that I could refuse, but isn't this a bit of a weird recommendation?

I am shocked that someone who actually has children of their own can think that their child was not actually human until the moment they were born

A foetus does not have rights. The law agrees, which I am glad about, because I would hate to live in a society where I am considered nothing more than a walking womb.

Silly argument, GetDown, those two are not linked.
Do I believe that as a foetus I did not have any rights that outweighed my mothers? YES
Do I think I would be perfectly happy if I had permanent problems because of her choices? NO

One does not preclude the other. I believe in full access to abortion on demand at any stage of pregnancy, that does not mean I would do so myself.

A womans right to bodily integrity is fundamental.

"walking womb" as you put it would put the rights of the fetus OVER that of the woman, which of course would be ridiculous.

No one is saying the woman doesn't have rights. No one is denying her anything she NEEDS. Since when does a fully grown woman NEED cigarettes, as opposed to oxygen, food or water>?

I would refuse, I think it's absolutely shocking that they wouldn't take someone's word for it.

Thats her choice though, not yours. Thats the point.

"What I don't understand is, what will they do if you test positive to the smoking test?

Exactly! they cant do fuck all, so its a complete waste of time

people that want to smoke, will do, end of

I am not saying that a woman needs to smoke, but if someone is addicted and really struggling to stop, what do you propose? A prison for all smoking pregnant women to make sure they don't smoke?

It is about choice, as runnybottom said, hopefully most of us are intelligent enough to make a sensible informed choice, which would be not to smoke.

The way pregnant women are patronised in this country is a disgrace. Anyone would think our brains turn to mush when that blue line comes up.

runnybottom sorry but your logic is flawed.

You believe that a woman has a right to an abortion at any stage, but you wouldn't do it?

You believe that a woman has a right to smoke during pregnancy, but you wouldn't do it?

Would you also believe that someone had a right to make abusive comments, but you wouldn't do it?

Or perhaps someone has a right to murder but you wouldn't do it?

Some things are just right and wrong. Our whole legal system is based on this fact.

But I live in central London and travel by tube. Aparently thses things mean that I smoke the equivalent of 3 fags a day anyway.

Pattenberger - No, just ban tobacco.

pattenberger history suggests that yes, people are that stupid. We all do things every single day that are not good for us.

weetabixw. have not read the whole thread, so sorry if this has already been asked, but where is the scientific evidence that smoking causes autism? Id be interested to read that, as I dont smoke, never have, yet I have 2 ds with autism.
I would refuse the test on principle and think its a really bad idea. If women want to smoke they will smoke, and at a time when they are vulnerable, need to feel comfortable with their midwife and HCP, not be "treated" like teacher/pupil.

Coalition good point, personally I wish they would, rather than having all these silly half-arsed measures we have now surrounding smoking. Oh, forgot, too much tax revenue

GetDown I know people make silly decisions, but it doesn't mean all of us should be treated in the same way. I strongly believe that taking away even the smallest elements of choice away from women could lead on to bigger incursions on women's rights.

Not only is this patronising (I know whether I smoke or not and I don't need to be tested, thanks), but really, we don't have money for new and effective cancer drugs, or for up-to-date pregnancy screening, or for effective mental health services, but we have money for this? To test non-smokers to see if they're lying?

PS, why are people feeding WeetabixWhiner - she's an obvious troll

It's infantilising pregnant women and it pisses me off. Why not make everyone do this, when they register with a GP? After all, many people underplay their smoking / drinking on those initial questionnaires. Or would that be an unwarranted intrusion.

Pregnant women are about to become (or are already) mothers. They will make a thousand decisions affecting their babies' health and wellbeing, of which whether or not to smoke is just the first. If we can't trust them on that, it follows we certainly can't trust them to take care of the child once it's born. It's a nonsense

pattenberger you are right about the tax revenue. That's something I think the government would struggle to give up if there were a ban.

Sadly I think the "free choice" argument is often bandied about in politics when it is actually all about money from the tax

It is not flawed, your opinion may be that I am wrong but that is all, your opinion.

Can you not see the difference between principles and personal actions?
Do I believe that smoking in pregnancy is ok, or should be encouraged? No, I think its quite reprehensible in fact, but that taking choice from women is worse.

You talk about the legal system. Do you want it to be illegal for a woman to smoke in pregnancy because it is bad for her foetus? Lets say we do that then. Whats next? Drinking in pregnancy is bad too. Banned. Runny eggs and raw meat, unwashed salads, thats all bad isn't it? Let make it illegal for pregnant women to do all that too.
Shall we build hospitals/prisons for all these pregnant women that are breaking the law? Or just fine them all?

There are very very few things that are just wrong, by the way. And thats not actually what the legal system is built on anyway.

Smoking whilst pregnant is bad we all know it, just like we all know smoking at any time will more then likely kill you.
I gave up a 6 year habit when I found I was pregnant with my eldest. I just didn't want to smoke whilst pregnant and the smell just turned my stomach. I managed without for 12 years until my partners gran died and things got really stressful for us. After a week I stopped as it felt wrong(and too expensive)
I have friends who smoked all the way through and some who cut back slightly.
You can't force women to stop but you can offer them support and advice. Breathlysing them and them criticising them is a step too far and could put smokers off going to see midwives

They can fuck right off IMO.

I don't even smoke and would refuse that.

I used to smoke and gave up the second I even suspected I was pregnant, I think that as we all know how bad it is for you, not to mention expensive and totally pointless more help should be given to women who and expecting to give up cause they arent just harming themselves but a whole new person too. However, Im not sure how breath-testing people would really help, but then again it makes a valid point as continuing to smoke only spells bad news really doesnt it?
Difficult one...

The problem is that, to quote Gregory House, "People Lie".

The idea of the test is to enable people who don't want to admit they smoke to do so and offer them help.

So the idea is to move it away from:-
"So do you smoke?"
"No"
"OK then"
and the woman receives no help to quit

to
"Can you blow into this, it's a standard test to test your exposure to Carbon Monoxide which can be quite harmfull...Oh that's a bit high, do you or anyone in your house smoke at all?"
"Well maybe the odd one..."
"OK, well here's some more information..."

What is the point of having a principle if it doesn't translate into personal action?

That is like saying I think abortion should be legal so everytime I get pregnant I should have an abortion.

Ridiculous.