to think that nursery staff and carers of the elderly deserve to be paid properly in recognition of what they do?

[TartyMcFarty]

I learned from a friend yesterday that she earns 12k working full time as a qualified nursery nurse. The unqualified staff are being paid less. With the best will in the world you surely can't expect excellent care from someone who's paid a pittance for such a demanding and important job.

Same goes for carers of course, many of whom are routinely paid the minimum wage for their attentions to incapacitated and dying people. WTF?

Why do we, as a society accept this? Our economy benefits from parents of the young and offspring of the elderly going out to work, but it's propped up by those (often women) who have to work for peanuts.

Why is childcare in particular so damned expensive when the people looking after babies on a 1:3 ratio aren't seeing the profit?

And BTW, I'm lucky enough not to have to pay for childcare when I return to work PT as my lovely mum is doing it for me. This isn't intended as a 'why me?' rant.

To answer the question, I'm assuming its as expensive as it is because once they've paid the staff (albeit badly), paid the overheads, and things like liability insurance etc there's enough left to make a profit to make it worth their while.

If you go on Companies House and look at the company accounts of various day nurseries etc, you see that they are not raking it in, just making enough of a tidy profit to make it worth their while having the stress of running the business.

I'm not saying they are martyrs or anything or doing it out of love alone, hell no, but there are other businesses which would make them a lot more where they probably could pay their staff more than they do.

So why then. do we accept that it's fine for us to pay, relatively speaking, as little as we do for our children/elderly to go to nursery/care homes, so we can afford a decent quality of life, while our childcare providers can't?

I work in childcare and get paid £6 an hour. I have a foundation degree in Early Years and a Ba (Hons) Early Childhood Studies 2:1 and Early Years Professional Status. I am qualified in Child Protection, First Aid etc. I dont think people in childcare should be paid more though as then you get people doing it for the money and not the love. Its only £30 a day at our nursery for 3 meals, nappies included and 10 hours care. That is the average rate here and our nursery makes no profit it is community interest so any money made goes back in to the nursery.

I would refuse a payrise if offered one as it takes money away from the kids, and the kids I work with are some of the most vulnerable in society.

Childcare to me is a vocation and a love. I do hours for free and so do all my colleagues my manager is only on 13k but she loves it to.

of course.

but then even fewer of us would be able to afford it.

the state certainly can't.

where is this money going to come from?

gina82, I admire your commitment but it's attitudes like yours that help to maintain the inequality between the users and providers of childcare.

I don't know where the money comes from. Cost of living has got so out of hand that people can't afford to pay more for childcare and can't afford not to work. It's awful, actually.

i'll tell you what you do.

you pay your childminder / carer more than they ask for and you tell them that they're worth more than the paltry amount they were charging. or give them a bonus at the end of the year.

you get your friends to do the same.

but i think you'll find a lot of people just can't do that.

It's a basic question of supply and demand, I'm afraid.
That said, you can choose to pay anyone you use more than the going rate. Or, as some eles said, give them a bonus. And I certainy don't think we can ask more of the state - the country is already on the verge of bankrupcy.

It would be nice if the minimum wage could be raised. I'm no economical expert though but there is probably a reason why, at the moment, that wouldn't work either, but ideally it would go up.

I think the whole idea of tax credits etc is so that people in these lower paid jobs can at least have families of their own.

Awful as it sounds, if they were paid £40k a year, it would probably attract the wrong people into the job. People would be in it for the money, not because they love working with kids. As it stands, at least if they are not loving the kids then they tend to leave as the money is indeed poo.

But I'm sure there is a middle ground that is better than my crude ramblings above - I just dont know what it is!

YANBU though, in essence.

'gina82, I admire your commitment but it's attitudes like yours that help to maintain the inequality between the users and providers of childcare.'

The providers of our childcare dont make any money at all so there is no inequality. All money made goes back to the kids. Its community interest thats how it works. Many private nurseies work like this now as the government cant afford to run them so they get taken over. Even in other nurseries I have worked in I have never known many to make much of a profit. My ex manager/owner remortgaged her house to keep my old nursery going. There isnt much money to be made in most nurseries unless you have a massive, expensive one. (I have never known one though here as its only £3 per hour per child and never been more than that in the 4 settings I have worked in).

I get free childcare anyway through tax credits so if you add all that up I am probably getting more than most mums who have to pay for nurseries. I get more job satisfaction, get to be with my own children, every day is different to be honest I dont know of any downsides to working in childcare

I used to work in day services for adults with LD. I got paid 10p an hour more than the elderly carers as 'danger money'. I could have earnt more shelf stacking in Tesco. They are dependant on people who care taking on the work.

'I used to work in day services for adults with LD. I got paid 10p an hour more than the elderly carers as 'danger money'. I could have earnt more shelf stacking in Tesco. They are dependant on people who care taking on the work.'

They have to pay you more to work in Tescos shelf stacking as its boring, unstimulating, repetitive, thankless etc. )I used to work in Sainsburys you would have to pay me £50 an hour to go back to that!) It was by far the worst job I have ever had. Care is interesting and gives you a brilliant sense of satisfcation that to me is better than any big house, flash car etc. My best friend works with adults with LD and she loves it. I think keeping wages low ensures it attracts the right people personally.

I agree, these jobs are some of the most important around and I am happy to have dd at a nursery where the staff are fond of her, care for her and give her the attention that I could give her if I didn't have to work. DH's granny was in a home for years until she died in Jan and I saw how much of her dignity and well being depended on being cared for by people who knew what they were doing and cared about the people in their charge. People in these fields deserve far far more than they get and I wish they could have it. But, as has been said, the numbers don't add up. Doesn't mean they don't deserve it though.

YANBU

Yanbu. Yet all the time we have threads on Mumsnet complaining about how expensive childcare is.

I think at the end of the day job satisfaction is more important than high wages. My husband is a low paid youth worker and as I said I work in nursery. We only make £21.5k take home between us but we live within our means and are happy. I wouldnt ever want to have to change jobs just to make more money, as you have to spend loads of time at work so why make yourself miserable doing something you dont enjoy?

But at least in Tesco you didn't get a broken nose, bad back, teeth broken,covered in bruises, scratches, hair pulled out, clothes wrecked daily and no expenses reimbursed!

gina, CTC/WTC are all very well while they last. What if you're a carer without dependent children though, how do you make ends meet then? And though the philosophy of your community-spirited nursery is admirable, I don't think the big chains have the same altruistic intent. Staff turnover is huge at these places partly because people can't afford or aren't motivated to work for such low pay. How can that lack of continuity be good for young children?

Low pay is an abuse of your goodwill.

I agree with OP. The low pay is outrageous. I think if the wealthiest people paid higher taxes, we would be able to fund better paid state childcare, which would be better for everyone I think - the kids and the staff. I am more than willing to pay more tax. Though I think under the budget I may now get to pay less - due to personal allowance change. Though not sure on that one actually! Anyway, it is the only way forward as far as i can see.

fathersday - the past has shown both in the uk and other countries that if you put tax up by too much, the actual tax take goes down.
People and companies simply won't pay it. They work less, find ways to avoid or move.

Even the GB administration completely accepted that.

I think the increase to 50% on income tax is probablya bout as high as you can go given the coupling wiht increases in NI. More than that and we'll see a reduction, not an increase.

I am a care assistant with my local health board; I earn a whole £7.79p ph for being responsible for 41 (max) elderly confused people with one other care assistant at night, I do get a night shift allowance which does bring my take home pay reasonable.
I have been in my job for 22yrs and have been graded into a band 2. I am prevented from going up to a band 3 (furthering my career ) because the Health Service refuse to allow us training (no money)I can?t do the training outside my job because it has to be done on a work basis.
I enjoy my job most of the time although it can be a lot of pressure working with people who are confused ,yes I get annoyed when I know I am capable of furthering my career and I am prevented from doing so, I could go on and on about issue?s within the NHS and workers but is there any point really.

litchick - not true - scandinavia i a case in point. GB may have accepted that, but it is simply not true. also if people are too greedy to be a proper part of society and contribute in accordance with their means, i think it is great if they leave - i think we'd be quite ok without bankers and w ankers.

If they leave, and here I'm not so much thinking just of banking ( everyone's favourite yet boringly predictable whipping boy) but businesses, what will we replace them with? Not only in terms of tax take but jobs they offer?
Or will everyone be employed by the state?
Cos, ya know, those state employees have to be paid from the tax take...

We need to encourage businesses to come here. For UK businesses to stay here. We need investment.

And we simply can't pretend we'll get any of those things if we make the UK unattractive.

I'm not saying it's fair, or pretty. Just the way it is.

YANBU

OP is right, low rates of pay in childcare or care of adults are scandalous. Suspect a major factor is that it has always been treated as 'women's work' which is always undervalued economically - look at all those councils who have been caught out paying carers and dinner ladies less than binmen and gardeners for 30 YEARS after the sex discrimination act came in and are howling about having to settle claims.

Other problem is childcare is generally paid by the child's parents, and many parents couldn't afford to pay more. And those who can employ nannies who do get higher rates of pay (albeit richly deserved and probably not enough).

Dunno what to do about it, bar the equal pay stuff in local authorities. (If you are a carer and working for the council for some years, do check with your union whether you are entitled to upgrading or back pay or to make a claim... see what the rates of pay are for manual labour carried out by largely male workers. I don't mean to be rude about manual labour, btw, it's just the kind of jobs the courts say are a comparison.)