to think that nursery staff and carers of the elderly deserve to be paid properly in recognition of what they do?

[TartyMcFarty]

I learned from a friend yesterday that she earns 12k working full time as a qualified nursery nurse. The unqualified staff are being paid less. With the best will in the world you surely can't expect excellent care from someone who's paid a pittance for such a demanding and important job.

Same goes for carers of course, many of whom are routinely paid the minimum wage for their attentions to incapacitated and dying people. WTF?

Why do we, as a society accept this? Our economy benefits from parents of the young and offspring of the elderly going out to work, but it's propped up by those (often women) who have to work for peanuts.

Why is childcare in particular so damned expensive when the people looking after babies on a 1:3 ratio aren't seeing the profit?

And BTW, I'm lucky enough not to have to pay for childcare when I return to work PT as my lovely mum is doing it for me. This isn't intended as a 'why me?' rant.

Whilst it remains a predominantly female workforce the wage will be low. The gov. subsidy for the over 3's doesn't cover the actual cost of the childcare provided and so many preschools run at a loss. My previous employer is asking staff to take a pay cut from September. I am doing a BA (Hons) Early Childhood Studies and probably will earn about £1.00 more than if I has remained a lvl 3.

fathersday

Higher earners, including bankers, already pay a much higher proportion of their income as tax than lower earners. (Assuming they are not using loopholes: I agree these should be closed.)

I can't remember the exact statistics but it's something like 90% of all tax paid in the UK is paid by the top 20% of earners.

There are many many people who if they were taxed any more would simply move countries or move to a lower paid job. It would not be worth their while any more. The tax take WOULD go down. That is what happened when there was an 80% tax rate a few decades ago.

So, are you willing to lose that 90% of tax take? I don't think so.

It is easy to say "tax the high earners more, they can afford it". But it just doesn't work in practice.

no, higher earners DO not pay more tax as a proportion of their earnings. Remember the parable of the widow's mite? A few quid is far more important to someone who doesn't have much money in the first place than someone who can afford things such as private school fees.

On the maths itself, regressive taxes such as council tax and VAT bear disproportionately on the poor. So it's wrong that the coalition has put up VAT and slashed benefits (and will slash public services, they just didn't explain what 25% cuts mean). While the rich are asked to contribute what, a small bit of capital gains tax? But still far less than the rest of us pay in income tax, so they still come off best if they can choose to allocate their finances to capital, not income.

But don't higher tax payers pay a disproportionate amount of the tax take vis a vis income tax?

I mena a relatively small amount of people pay over 75% of it?

By which I mean that we are reliant on that, and want to make sure that they still keep on paying..which counter intutively seems to be linked to not asking for too much.

'gina, CTC/WTC are all very well while they last. What if you're a carer without dependent children though, how do you make ends meet then? And though the philosophy of your community-spirited nursery is admirable, I don't think the big chains have the same altruistic intent. Staff turnover is huge at these places partly because people can't afford or aren't motivated to work for such low pay. How can that lack of continuity be good for young children?

Low pay is an abuse of your goodwill.'

I only get Child tax credit to cover my childcare with none left over so it would be exactly the same. I have worked in childcare for ages and managed to buy my own place etc in an expensive area. All the other nursery workers also have their own mortgages so I dont think wages are too low if your ok with money.

Most people have been in the job for at least a few years and thats the same at most nurseries I have worked in. We dont get very high staff turnovers in nurseries in my area that I have ever known.

My own children started nurseries at 4 months and I personally think the ones I have worked in are fantastic. We dont have any big chain nurseries in our local area but I would never put my child in a big chain as they wouldnt have the passion anyway imo as the smaller, community ones.Never worked at a chain nursery but my old manager/owner was on an even lower rate than we were. Dont really have a problem with staff turnover in any of the places I have worked in either. Chain nurseries are notorious for being rubbish but they are certainly not representative of the whole of the industry.

'I agree with the OP. Our most vunerable and precious people are entrusted to exhasuted and badly paid carers.
I for one am not looking forward to being frail and elderly in a care home with poorly paid carers.'

Why just because we are poorly paid doesnt mean we dont care to be honest I find this insulting. Money isnt important to some people and isnt the reason why they do things. You get teachers and social workers who are paid loads who dont care (I know as I have had contact with many of them in my job!!) they are on loads and some of them couldnt care less. High wages definitely doesnt equal good carers and never will imo.

YANBU
I am a very dedicated and experienced nursery nurse. I have nearly finished a foundation degree and intend to top up to a BA Hons. I currently earn £12,500 per year. I have done training in First Aid, safeguarding, health and safety, disability discrimination, and lots more. Today, I attended a meeting about one of my key children with 2 social workers, about quite serious stuff. It's not just playing with playdough all day.

i think the profession will become alot more recognised as a degree standard job soon and this will push up the wages hopefully

find gina's points weird really

'i think the profession will become alot more recognised as a degree standard job soon and this will push up the wages hopefully

find gina's points weird really '

Well we have just had a council run nursery in our area who are one of the only nurseries in our area that pay higher wages (nursery nurses on £16k manager on 22k). Its just closed down as council cant run in as its making such little profit, so now loads of parents have lost a nursery, all the kids have to be moved and all the staff are on the dole! Its a ridiculous idea to put wages up as that is what will happen! Its unsustainable and ridiculous to pay nursery nurses that much.

gina82 "Childcare to me is a vocation and a love. I do hours for free and so do all my colleagues my manager is only on 13k but she loves it to."
Very commendable, I am sure. But, that doesn't pay my mortgage or buy new school clothes for my daughter, does it?

YANBU. They should be paid more. At my son's nursery the girls work from 7.30am-6.30pm every day and must be exhausted. They're all lovely and would never show it or say anything bad about it but I feel that they look after the most precious things in our lives - they should be paid well for it.
It's tough looking after your own kids all day so gawd knows what it must be like with a roomful of them all day!

forums.nurseryworld.co.uk/showthread/2e2eb844-9e25-4af5-856f-1bf1cbeae7c1

The majority of people see the reason why we have to be low paid such as on this thread. Most nurseries that are not chains are working at very little profit. The government cannot possibly subsidise all wages of childcarers etc. Surestart is costing way too much already.

YANBU, but for those of us who have to work several jobs between us to pay £700 per parent per week for residential care in a standard care home we would be absolutely stuffed. I do think more money should go to the staff, but I am crippled by the fees as it is.

I totally agree that it would be nice for them to be paid more, but where is this money going to come from?

FWIW the nursery staff probably had more disposable income than I did when I had two at nursery - it took all of my salary. Childcare costs are extremely high in the UK compared to other countries, and many parents can barely afford them. The Govt has run out of money too.

i think nurseries should be subsidised by the state but thats what the surestart nurseries are doing aren't they?

'i think nurseries should be subsidised by the state but thats what the surestart nurseries are doing aren't they? '

They cant afford to keep them loads of people are losing their jobs, services have to stop etc. The government cant afford it thats the point, so I dont ever want my wages to go up as we will end up like them. Its the kids that suffer the most.

gina stop quoting back to people!

we have three new ones opening here, people are using them - staff are highly trained and premises fantastic

I work with surestart and they work in our building. Trust me cuts are coming, already happening in a lot of areas. I go to weekly meetings with them as we are community interest we are in partnership with them. You wait and see.

Did you not see my post above:

'Well we have just had a council run nursery in our area who are one of the only nurseries in our area that pay higher wages (nursery nurses on £16k manager on 22k). Its just closed down as council cant run in as its making such little profit, so now loads of parents have lost a nursery, all the kids have to be moved and all the staff are on the dole! Its a ridiculous idea to put wages up as that is what will happen! Its unsustainable and ridiculous to pay nursery nurses that much.'

Thats just one nursery and had no spaces with an outstanding ofsted. The owner of my nursery is very high up within Surestart so I know a lot of what is happening. Places are getting sold off to either private or community interest etc in order to keep them sustainable.

mm i get what you mean, maybe alot of it depends on where you are in the country

YANBU.

Cuts in public spending are only going to get worse. The Govt can't afford to subsidise them, and many parents can't afford the full fees.

I live in one of the most deprived areas of the uk. It will happen everywhere over the next few years I have no doubt about it. This government will change it all and put nursery nurses wages back down. They have only been subsidising the wages for a few years and already big cuts are being made.

Look at cases like the devon county council nursery nurses cuts. That is probably one of the most high profile ones they lost their case. I think by the end of this governments reign surestart groups will only run to include the most deprived if you earn over a certain wage you wont be able to come/or will have to pay. The nurseries connected to them will be all either private, community interest or gone. I will be very surprised if I am wrong

yanbu.

I agree carers of the very young and very old shoudl be paid more - but the end users don't seem to want to pay this. Caring costs as it is so labour intensive. It has always shocked me somewhat that cleaners can earn more than childminders.