to not teach my DS any English

[DewinDoeth]

Ok, moved from another thread as it seems to have got people going!

DS is two and speaks quite a lot, but only in Welsh.

I live in a Welsh-speaking community, I'm a native speaker and Welsh is my first language (in fact I'm a lecturer in Welsh lang&lit), my entire family are Welsh. DS attends a Welsh medium nursery 2 days a week, and is cared for by my mother 2 days a week. And me the other days! None of the carers speak English with him.
My DH has learnt Welsh to near-fluency, and only speaks Welsh with DS: it gives DH a chance to improve (slowly, with an nonjudgmental speaker ) and has given him a massive confidence boost when it comes to it.
I am not teaching DS any English at all, and I never speak English with him. DS will learn English quite naturally, mainly from the television, or from hearing it around when there are people who don't speak Welsh. It's how it was with me and my English is of a very high standard (no doubt there will be grammatical errors in this post now - but I have an Oxbridge PhD so it can't be all bad).

PILs are not Welsh, live 250 miles away, and have expressed sadness that 'they can't communicate with him'.
They learnt to say hello and thank you in Nepalese when they went on holiday, but despite knowing me for 10 years and my family for 6, they have never learnt any words of Welsh at all, not please or thank you, and say it's pointless because it's a dead language, and it's not an useful language.

I have not read the whole thread, for which I apologise but it is huge.

My DC were born in Germany, I am Scottish, DH German. For the first two years of her life DD spoke almost no German, just English. Our home language is German but she spent most of her time with me and so English was her strongest language.

I can vividly remember having to translate for my PILs. They were not upset at DD not speaking German, they loved the fact that she was bilingual and took great pleasure in telling friends, acquaintances and random people on the street that their GD spoke English.

By the time DS was born DD started kindergarten and slowly started to speak more German. For the next 3 years she switched to speaking almost only German, and DS's English was not nearly as strong as hers.

We moved to Switzerland 18mths ago and they are now trilingual, English, German and French. They learnt French at school at the ages of 4yo and 6yo without anyone speaking to them in French at home. Since we have a lot of English speaking friends here, their English is better.

I would say they are almost equally fluent in German and English and almost as fluent in French at the moment.

YANBU. Your DS will pick up English. If your PILs make the effort, he will learn a bit from them and will be able to communicate with them.

"My PILS would be FUMING if I said 'nope, we live in France we will speak English and only English at home, only socialise with expats and they won't learn French at all'."

Of course they would. Who wouldn't? But the OP and her son live in Wales, and speak Welsh.

The OP does speak English at home with her husband.

It seems very unfair to me-why withold a language that is part of his heritage? It seems very controllling and a way of keeping your DC exclusively yours.
They absorb language at that age and it is no hardship. I know a lot of bilingual DCs and they swap from language to language.
He should be able to speak in English to those who don't speak in Welsh. I find it extremely rude in Wales when people hold conversations around you in Welsh-deliberately excluding you. It is very insular and not the way I would want to bring up a DC.

Oh God.

So ALL the Welsh posters have chips on their shoulders, yes? Every single none of them? It couldn't be that, say, they have more experience of this and are trying to do the best for their children?

MY DHs first language is English- He learned Welsh before he met me. I find it seriously offensive that posters here seem to think that because OPs husband has learned the language later in life, it must be substandard. The truth is often the opposite- My DHs language is far superior to mine. Also, though he was raised through the medium of English, the language of DHs mind has changed- He thinks, and dreams, in Welsh now. He'd feel odd speaking to the DCs in English when, naturally, he wants to in Welsh.

My own father is English, and learned Welsh when he was in his twenties. The same with him- He felt that the natural thing was to speak Welsh to us. My English grandparents were delighted, and do you know what they did? They learned a few words of Welsh, just to show support. I took my own DCs to the north of England to see them recently... It was wonderful to hear my 4 yo speaking to his great-grandparents in perfect English, and then to me and DH in Welsh. My Nan turned to me and said it was wonderful he could communicate so easily. You see, she had respect- Unlike OPs in-laws.

" "My PILS would be FUMING if I said 'nope, we live in France we will speak English and only English at home, only socialise with expats and they won't learn French at all'."

Of course they would. Who wouldn't? But the OP and her son live in Wales, and speak Welsh.

The OP does speak English at home with her husband. "

Okay reverse the situation for my parents then 'we live in France, we will speak French and only French at home and they won't learn English at all'. But that's skewing things slighlty because here we have literally no English input beyond what I would give them and I do recognise that English is massively prevalent in Wales.

I already said further down the thread that it's slightly less U as English is present in the home but I still think it's unnecessarily excluding her PILs from a relationship with the DGC by refusing to teach him any English at all. If her DH actively doesn't want to speak English then I find that odd (value neutral) but fair enough, that's his choice and as long as he's comfortable that's fine. What I don't find fair is that despite both parents actively choosing to speak Welsh to their child they don't seem to be making any proactive effort to ensure that their DC can communicate with one set of grandparents.

The Welsh thing is a bit of a red herring IMO.

To the point that the OP's DH should only speak English, I can say that I often speak to my DC in German although it is not my native language. I have always done so as it is our home language.

My DC still learnt English, despite hearing mainly German, living in Germany. We had UK TV and videos, my parents spoke English, I spoke English when DH was not home.

Why is it strange that he speaks Welsh? It is going to be the minority language eventually for the DS so a really good grounding at a young age is a good thing.

Thesecondcoming, please show me where DewinDoeth has been 'anti' her husband.

I guess from a personal perspective I find it strange because I don't know French children's culture. It's not something I can pass on.

Childhood, for me, is intrinsically bound up in my mother tongue. It's part of me, my upbringing, my nursery rhymes, the little mannersims, quirks and ways I communicate with children...I wouldn't be able to reproduce that in French.

I appreciate, though, that I might be the one in the minority which is why I personally find it 'odd'.

YANBU and good for you. Welsh is a minority language and you need to take active steps to ensure that your son's Welsh is really well-established before he becomes too exposed to the overwhelming tide of English.

I can see why your PIL might feel a bit excluded- I saw the zoo thread and thought the relationship sounded strained. Might you not dress things up a bit, inviting them to speak English to him as the first step towards his being bilingual? They're not around enough to get in the way of his learning Welsh and it would make them feel included and useful. On the zoo trip, by the way, you should go with them- unfair to leave your ds unable to communicate.

Having Welsh is a wonderful cultural resource: every time I go to Wales it makes me jealous! He won't be able to avoid learning English, so IMO you really are doing the Right Thing.

I find it strange that your DP doesn't speak English to your DS. My dad is Italian and only spoke to me in English. I never learnt decent Italian, but I picked up lots of bad grammar and mispronunciations from my dad and I got the piss taken out of me mercilessly for it when I started school.

You can't really be that anti English, you married an Englishman!! But I think it is effort on both sides - because that is respectful. But by ENCOURAGING your son to speak English, rather than just waiting for it's natural beginning, you are at least teaching HIM to be respectful, even if the inlaws can't manage it. You seem to be going on about the importance of Welsh to you (fair enough) but rate English as second class anyway - as just something he will pick up naturally, almost like it is a disease.

My Husband went to live on the peninsual when he was 7 or so and was sent away for a week in Wales to learn welsh.. We went back to where he was brought up when I was pregnant a couple of years ago and I have never felt so un at ease in my life. No I cannot speak welsh, would I make an effort? yes I would, but when you walk in a shop and open your mouth and they all give you filthy looks it doesn't entice you to do so. Little did they know DH could understand every word being said! Still, they happily took our money in the shop BUT I would still, even after being treated not very nicely, go back there and still be respectful - because that is how I was brought up!

Valhalla how old is your cousin? DH is from Capel Bangor, which is about 5 miles from Ponterwyd

See, everyone in Wales really does know each other...

I am a bit baffled by the idea that not being able to speak English at the age of 2 will hold you back at university. I spoke both from Day 1 (mum is English, dad was Welsh), and went to a Welsh medium school. But we still learnt to read and write in English, and had to take GCSE English as well as Welsh! I studied at university in Wales, and studied some modules through Welsh and some through English. My SIL, who only spoke Welsh at home and attended Welsh schools, went to university in England and did just fine. I don't know anyone who struggled with the English at university having been to Welsh medium schools.

I have never had a job where I haven't used the Welsh language. Where I work at the moment I don't speak a word of English. My only regret is that my written Welsh has got very rusty due to lack of use since I left education. It is so easy to lose Welsh, and I think that is why we all feel so strongly about passing it on to our children!

The problem with one partner speaking Welsh to a child and the other speaking English is that often conversation will revert to the language which everyone understands, ie English. So the Welsh is gradually pushed out. If both parents can speak Welsh, either first language or as a competent learner, then everyone speaking Welsh stops this happening.

Somebody touched on accents... if the OP's DH is surrounded by first language Welsh speakers it is likely that he will have picked up a Welsh accent when he speaks Welsh. I speak English with an English accent and Welsh with a Welsh accent.

And as for chips on our shoulders... it amazes me that it is considered acceptable to have this kind of attitude towards Wales and the Welsh language. Do black South Africans have "a chip on their shoulders" about apartheid? How about Indians, do they have "a chip on their shoulder" over colonialism? Thought not. {biscuit]

Oh yawn at the 'anti-Welsh' thing. Get a grip.

This isn't a typical Welsh speaking family as the father is English. What the hells up with him that he thinks it's OK for his parents not to be able to speak to their grandson and be understood.

Yes he'll pick up English when he's a little older as other Welsh speakers do but seeing that there is an native English speaker in the house what's the problem with him hearing it there. It has to be a deliberate choice to not teach him English. Weird. Post this just to piss people off and feel smug?

I went to Aberystwyth Uni and whilst the university is bi-lingual (as is the town) it doesn't give you any advantage being a Welsh speaker other than being able to choose from one extra hall of residence there) and not having to be taught what 'stand' and 'sit' are in Welsh for your graduation. Oh and there are a few pubs you wouldn't go into because they are welsh speaking and anti-English (mind you I went anyway)

"Anit-Welsh on this thread", for the love of god ...

Even if that was true, I don't see that as being anti her husband. I would be surprised if OP didn't let the in-laws speak English with the child, they don't need to take him away in order to speak to him.

piscesmoon raises an interesting point. If I am in a conversation with a group of people, one of whom can't speak Welsh, I'll speak in English, but if I'm having a conversation with a Welsh-speaker, I'll speak in Welsh. I've had one comment in a shop that we "turned to speak Welsh when we came in so we couldn't understand you"- Of course we bloody didn't. Why would you think we were talking about you anyway?! Seems odd to me- No-one would say that about a French person in France...

i think it's very very sad that his grandparents can't communicate with him
Most children can learn 2 languages at once

Have to hide this thread now or I'll get an ulcer...

if that was in reference to ME they were talking about ME because I spoke english - TO MY HUSBAND

Which pubs in Aber are anti-English? (genuinely interested as I can't think of any).

Pantycelyn had the best pub crawls

And as I said before there was the option in my department to study some modules through the medium of Welsh. Other modules had lectures in English but the option of tutorials in Welsh. One or two of the lecturers were actually English, but had learnt Welsh (as adults) to the standard that they were able to lecture using it.

Just to re-iterate what Bessie said, we do actually speak Welsh amongst ourselves all of the time. We don't just switch to Welsh when a non-Welsh speaking person enters the room just to be rude and piss them off...

YANBU as long as you are confident (which it seems you are) that your son will learn English at school.

It's unlikely to hold him back. Purely anecdotal, but my Welsh-speaking mother didn't speak English until she started school and picked it up in no time - she ended up studying English at university and was so advanced at (English-speaking) school she sat her 11-plus at 10 and went to high school a year early.

She now speaks four languages fluently and has made a living out of that (as a languages teacher).

Other people might do it differently, but if it works for you and DH so be it. Can't his grandparents teach him a little English? And could they learn a bit of basic Welsh to help out?

Arf at walking into a shop in Wales and being shocked/offended by people speaking...welsh

do you also get shocked by people in Rome speaking Italian? Crazy isn't it?

Holiday Home in Wales...

Oh that's a whole new thread

Deeply weird (downright mean, actually) not to bring up a child bilingually so that he/she can speak to all members of his family.

why deny him the chance to learn english?? seems weird
bilingual is agreat skills for kids to have