to expect my son to share his toys a bit...

[SloanyPony]

DS, 3 in September, has a lot of toys (PFB) many of which he couldn't give a damn about anymore (Iggle Piggles, drums which you bash and they play a tune/lights, tractors which moo, etc) - he's moved on to Lego and Buzz Lightyears and the like. So we have baskets full of stuff that technically belong to him, but that he hasn't touched for well over a year.

So we now have DD who is coming up to 8 months, sitting up very solidly and sturdily and thus becoming much more interested and easily entertained by various toys which were beyond her a couple of months back as she is now able to bum shuffle towards them, use her hands to operate them, and sit up and enjoy them, etc.

But will DS let her? Every time he sees something being used, he snatches it away from her, not so he can use it himself, but because its "his".

Now I always try and be very sensitive and kind about the whole sibling thing, I've read "Siblings without Rivalry" etc and I am well schooled on the do's and donts, generally, and I know the whole "he had you to himself for 2 years" etc rationale, yes, but, I'm DAMNED if I'm going to spend yet more money on bucketloads of fluroecent plastic tat with insatiable appetites for AA batteries just because these (unused for at least a year) things are technically "his".

AIBU to put my foot down with this one and insist that he shares his old things with her, even if it is at the risk of him resenting her slightly at times? Its not a bad skill to learn, that of sharing, and I know they get better at it from 3-ish onwards (bring it on!) but seriously - AIBU? Hell, every time she acquires something new, he likes to have a good look at it and a play with it, and I dont snatch it from him on her behalf because its "hers". Maybe I should have?!?

"Share" can be a bit vague for small children - 'taking turns' is better. You have to model it a bit yourself:

"Oh look it's your turn with the drums, soon it'll be mummmy's turn" (Have a turn yourself - less threatening than sibling having a turn, then hand it back for his turn etc) Lots of praise and cuddles.

Do this for a few days, (not when he is tired or hungry etc). Then move onto "Shall we let Rosie have a turn?" (Hand to baby for very short turn, then give back to him) "Oh well done Rosie says thank you very much for her turn" etc Lots of praise etc.

It works eventually - key is very short turns for baby so he can tolerate it, and you being there to support and encourage his 'giving up' the item.

Makes you sound a bit like Joyce Grenfell though!

YANBU - I would imagine the concept of sharing won't really start happening until your DS starts to develop more complex social skills which include learning to share toys.

Keep on going with the work you are doing, and he will eventually grasp the concept of sharing.

Sorry I've not got any great advice (am due baby no2 next month so have all this to come too!).

Meant to say though with an under three it is still early days - a good time to start though, by three he should be well into sharing!

Keep going - DS1 is 4 now and DS2 is 16 months. DS1 is generally pretty good at sharing- but certainly wasnt to start off with - though DS2 is terrible for snatching so DS1 doesnt get a huge amount of choice in the matter any more...

Oh that's good advice, thank you Silverflower.

Yes, taking turns is the way forward, I think you are on to something there!

Having said that I've been saying "oh let DD have a turn" etc but more as a dissapointed exasperated statement rather than encouraging and positive reinforcement as you describe.

Ah well tomorrow is another day!

One of my friends said her age difference was similar between her two and the snatching of toys off the younger one by the older one didn't seem to upset the younger one too much, but when she was older she became "spiteful". Yikes!

She's becoming a bit of a snatcher as well come to think of it, but is limited mobility wise until she starts walking so has to sort of accept it when he takes something off her (my intervention aside that is)

I'd say at 2.5 they are definitely capable of understanding the concept of 'turns' and sharing. Many children are at playgroup at that age where sharing/turns is encouraged.

Maybe 'can you show your sister how that works?' and 'isn't she lucky to have a clever brother to show her how all the baby toys work...' etc. And let him decide that eg it needs new batteries, so he's taking on the more grown-up role rather than just being told he's too old and he can't have those toys anymore. And let him keep a couple of his most precious toys that he doesn't have to share.

Yep I was going to suggest turn taking - they don't understand sharing until much later, but DS (20m) will happily let other children take turns, wait for his turn, etc. Make it positive and make sure he gets his turn - by which time he may well decide he's not that interested anyway. It just reassures them that the other child isn't taking the toy away for ever.

Ah more good advice thank you. Yes, to be honest if I really thought he liked the toys anymore and wanted to genuinely use them I wouldn't "make" him share necesarily (he goes to preschool a couple of mornings a week so I'd just let her use them then!!!)

He just doesn't give a damn about these toys anymore, he doesn't even really want a turn to be honest, he just takes it off her and hides it generally! Sometimes her using it will arouse his interest and he'll halfheartedly use it for a while (which entertains her nevertheless) but its more of a churlish "no you can't have it" sentiment.

I'll do the turns thing I think and if he doesn't actually want a turn, I think I can say "well then it wont hurt you to let DD have a turn then" or similar.

Good, I was worried everyone would say IABU and that I need to buy her all new stuff so to not damage his sensitive ego such is the child centered world we live in. I'd have to build another room for crap if that were the case I fear.

Sloany - if we are being really child-centred then we should be making our children able to get on with a range of people in a range of cicumstances; that gives them the best chance of a happy life, not making them little ego-maniacs! You are doing the right thing IMHO!

It's definately taking turns at that age but we've gone very much for "everything is for sharing" approach - okay easier for us because I had 3 dc in 3 years 6 weeks. When they get gifts they are allowed to have a few items that are "special" and that the others have to ask for a turn of until the novelty wears off. Other than that nothing is "theirs" they have shared ownership of everything.

Hope that makes sense, it certainly has worked for us. The youngest was very puzzled when a visitor asked who the dolly pushchair belonged to she was and genuinely had no concept that it should belong to someone!

i agree with silver - you can't impose it on him because he needs to have some sense of control. Whilst I agree that they should be developing ideas of turn-taking and sharing, at playgroup etc, the sibling thing is more delicate and needs a lot of understanding. From his pov, the baby has already "taken' a lot from him in terms of attention etc, so the toys are symbolic. The fact that the baby is more alert, interested and mobile is more of a threat to his place.

I'm not saying that you have to get all new stuff- but maybe you could get something for her and allow him to use it to "model" sharing. And also, I bought a toy that was totally for them to sahre - and made a big point of telling them that - a wooden track that you put cars down, one after the other.

I don't think you can force a got sibling relationship. He'll sense you are irritated with him and that's hard, because 8 month olds are gorgeous and 3 year olds, in comparison, are a pain at times, which he'll be aware of and might make him be more inflexible and "mean"

Sorry if this sounds too child-centered

Meh - I am a hardass but I would be telling DS off if he behaved like that. 'fragile child egos' indeed.

(not that I'm having a dig at your DS, all children are selfish at that age, but they need to be taught not to be)

good sibling relationship (not "got")

My point is that they do need to be taught, but if you are annoyed with them at the time, then they get more defensive.

Been there .....

I would try buying your dd something that your dc would love and explain that it is dds but he will be allowed to have his turn with it, may well work?

I know what you mean Eric and to be honest he has been told off a reasonable amount over this issue (more of a I'm dissapointed that you just did that, please give it back to her or give her something else to play with NOW kind of thing) but I fear if I come down too hard all the time and things appear to him to always be in her favour, it will only manifest itself in a deep resentment of her, resulting in MORE bad behaviour towards her and before you know it I have a situation on my hands which is worse than that of a few possessions.

We've got to this age without any bad behaviour, resentment, pushing kicking etc. I dont want to go backwards. One of my friends had a DD (born the same day as it goes) and her son (2 weeks younger so same gap etc) turned into a bit of a terror for quite some time, hitting and biting etc. He's much better now though having said that, he took a chunk out of her cheek (not literally but tried to) by biting her only a month or so back.

So no bad behaviour, but like to strategise a bit with how to handle it with these sorts of issues. Much easier if he's just leaving tissues on the floor. No sensitive political stuff there - just pick it the hell up now and put it in the bin etc!

I don't understand what's wrong with being sensitive

< wanders off to pick flowers >

DS2 is 3 and DS3 is 10 months. We have always encouraged DS2 to "help" DS3 play with his toys by having him hand DS3 toys regularly, always helping him choose the ones that were safe for DS3 to play with (no small parts). DS2 is pretty good at bringing toys to DS3 and keeping the ones that are not "baby-friendly" away from him. But it took practice, and there are little blips here and there. For the most part, he does quite well. I think you just need to keep encouraging him to share.

I got the sense DS1 was (and still is) panicking when DD or now DS2 grab his toys even if they're old and not used by him.

So I just tell him that the others are "just looking" and they'll give them back. That seems to reassure him and even make him not bothered about the toys.

I think it's more than just about the toys.......

I think Jamie's approach is the better one.

Give him a shelf/area where he can put the treasures that he doesn't want to share/take turns with. Give your dd one too. Not that big so it limits what can go up there.

That gives him back some control of what he doesn't have to share and you put up some interesting things that dd receiveds and you can model after a few weeks with dd letting it now become a "for sharing" toy etc etc

I've had to get pretty zero tolerance with mine and snatching as now DD is big enough to snatch back they fight if I don't so I do think this needs nipping in the bud.

I think you need a strategy for this. I took all the babyish things and put them in DD's room, and said they're baby toys, the baby should have them in their room, and DS accepted that. He does go in to play with them and she goes in his room to play with his stuff and the rule is that whoever got it first has it, but after a period of time the other one gets a go if they are still bothered. I encourage no concept of ownership apart from soft toys, I want our 'rules' to be like cargirl's, it was like that when I was growing up with 3 sisters and we all shared stuff apart from a small group of special stuff and it worked really well.

My DCs are 17 months apart and the eldest is learning the hard way to share. Like Ericnormansmistress I've been quite firm at times saying "no don't snatch, if you want to play with it instead, ask nicely and give your little brother something else instead" Worked a treat for ages as she exchanged what he had for something else and then she learnt to give it back when she didn't want it anymore. That was the early start of sharing in this home. It probably worked as he was still little. It's got better and better though over time though with lots of praise and attention to the eldest. I have said to her "you weren't playing with this, he was, so why are you now trying to snatch it off him?" Admittedly logic doesn't always work

Fun times but the truth is my weird method may not work for you but I couldn't resist adding my two pence worth!

Impressed you've got to this point without him hurting his younger sibling though! My DD was very jealous of the new baby, but he did have colic and took a lot of attention from her in the early days

It's interesting to hear different approaches moomaa.I think I took some of DS1s old toys and asked him which we could give to the new baby - a praising his generosity.

I wonder if the personality of the child makes a difference as well. DS1 (now nearly 10) has always really loved playing on his own and has always played with toys a lot, whereas DS2 (7) has always been less bothered by toys, and much more about being sociable in big groups so I had to really accept that the toys were quite important to DS1 and act accordingly. I agree zero-tolerance for snatching or violence, but still maintain that if you can understand where the child is coming from you can go in a bit more lightly.

This is with the benefit of hindsight, mind you ...

teacakes - Oh yes - asking the older one to offer something to the baby worked for me too.