in thinking Measles can't be more dangerous now than it was 15 years ago ?

[Onajourney]

Hi

Wondering if there are any GP's out there that can tell me this ?

My eldest child is 15 and I still have his baby books and they say Measles is a mild disease and just to keep their temperature down etc, they liken it to chickenpox. I remember not being worried about it at all when he and his 11 year old brother were small.

Fast forward 14 years and we have a 1 year old who is at "huge risk from this killer disease" according our GP, but I can't understand how it can have changed so much.

Can anyone tell me, is Measles worse now than it was 15 years ago and if so why ?

Thanks

Sorry, vaccine implications. Phone keeps auto correcting (and adding bizarre punctuation!)

"I am however quite happy to defend my description of GPs as unable to engage their brains, becasue I have not come across a single example, certainly in the last 5 years, of one who could. "

Really?

Our GP has been very good, with DD1 and DD2 ezcema, my recurrent infections, DD1 infection. I understand that my mum is also very happy with the treatment she received for her dodgy hip. My brothers asthma is maintained well these days. My GP was also excellent when I developed antenatal anxiety and depression... The list goes on really.

I think that your comment is terribly harsh TBH. I think that the GPs that I have seen throughout my life have been very good, and would not be without this service.

I am also related to a lot of doctors and this kind of sweeping generalisation "they're all shit" is not really very nice TBH. Some aren't very good, as with any occupation, but to outright say that they're all incompetant, every single one of them, is extreme and unpleasant IMO.

So you honestly think that all GPs "never engage their brains" and are thus dangerously incompetant. As by defintion their diagnoses will always be incorrect and they will unfailingly cause more harm than good.

Swift to patronise and slow to listen (something I have only experienced with certain consultants, but it certainly happens) is a different complaint from them all being dangerously incompetant.

Hmmm... I see things have moved on rather, but anyway:

@Beachcomber: none of those three studies you linked to looked at the benefit of vitamin A administration in measles, and the results of the first and most detailed one did not show any association between low serum retinol and severe effects of measles, such as pneumonia, when all factors were controlled for. Of course you have to read the full research article to see that. A single association was significant: with otitis media, a relatively mild complication easily treated with antibiotics.

The majority of retinol is stored in the liver and a transient drop in serum levels is seen in other infections as well as measles. Even if children have a temperature it goes down. Without more specific evidence in children with severe disease there is not likely to be a trial to persuade anyone that giving high-dose vitamin A to relatively well-nourished children is beneficial.

GPs that I know have saved people's lives, cared for people at their death beds, eased their pain, spoken to their families. Talked to people with debilitating conditions, diagnosed them and helped them, spotted the early signs of cancer and referred on appropriately. Helped people with mental health problems. And so on and so on an infinity of things.

Of course when they have done these things successfully, then it must be down to luck or accident, obviously, as they're actually all shit and stupid, every single one of them.

@ Orm "Well that might be the case but she still died from shingles. So not true to say that cp isn't a dangerous disease."

Sorry Orm

However can anyone medical clarify this?

When my DCs had chicken pox I fretted about taking them to see their Grandmother in an Old People's Home due to the risk of shingles.

I was so worried I asked the GP and he said that it absolutely was NOT true that if you caught chicken pox a second time you got shingles. He said that chicken pox, once had, lies dormant in the body. If someone's immune system is at a low ebb for whatever reason at any time (could be stress for example), it could recur as shingles. But it was nothing to do with the chicken pox.

I still feel . When we all had it as children our Dad caught it too. Then my Mum, who had had it already, got shingles. Now I suppose that it is pretty stressful looking after three Dcs and a DH with chicken pox, but given that she had never had shingles before or since it's a bit of a coincidence, isn't it?

I have read it.

You say that GPs are not willing to discuss andrew wakefiel's work with you.

Then you go on to say:

"GPs today appear to me to be nothing more than human computers programmed to spew out the DoH line on anything their patients might ask about. "

"I am however quite happy to defend my description of GPs as unable to engage their brains, becasue I have not come across a single example, certainly in the last 5 years, of one who could. "

And then when I challenged you on these comments you said:

"I am related to a lot of doctors too. Sadly they all share the characteristic of being swift to patronise and slow to listen. I also think their professional culture has over time taken them further from exercising actual professional discretion and more to following pre-approved protocols and DoH approved "lines". I speak as I find I'm afriad. "

I am quite capable of reading, I can see what you have written. I tried as hard as I could to see if you were talking about one single issue ie the andrew wakefield conversation, but no, your comments were generalised and clear.

If you did not mean what you wrote, then maybe you should have written something different.

re the "better autistic than dead" comment. As a (very) earlier poster said, it's all about risk analysis.

Give child vaccine: (possible) small chance of causing autism (= v v small chance of profound autism), large chance of child being fine

Don't give child vaccine: small chance of contracting measles (=v v small chance of death), large chance child will be fine

So you're weighing one unlikely outcome, against another unlikely outcome. For me the possible consequences of measles (i.e. death,) are worse than a lifetime of caring for a SN child.

All those who say they had measles and were fine are forgetting that they probably had the vaccine before they caught measles- I don't know how long they have been giving it but it is as least 38 years, the vaccine lessons the affect of measles, it doesn't prevent 100%. The fact that there are not many deaths or children with complications from measles now is because the vaccine has almost eliminated measles and hardly any children get it. If we were to stop vaccinating the number and severity of cases would rise and it would become a serious childhood illness again.

Yep and thats what I mean but of course it makes me narrowminded/prejudice/uneducated and all the other nonsense people who cant see anyone elses view like to spout.

All those who refuse to vaccinate are increasing the risk for other children as I see it.

Except, itsallgoingtobefine, you're also missing out vaccine = v v small chance of death also (rare but possible. No vaccine is 100% safe)

What you are saying is skating very close to the "collateral damage" argument. All wakefield wanted is for more investigations to be done, to see whether that small risk of autism (which is not actually.that small for some) could be eliminated.

So, redredwine. Do you want to hear from parents of children with ASD who don't think mmr caused autism (because there are now 2 of us here) or the autistic children? Because dd1 will be up for a little while more...

Even when vaccine are contra-indicated, onebadbbaby?

Onebadbaby. That argument always puzzles me. How do you know that a vaccinated child who catches the disease has it milder than if they hadn't been vaccinated? There's no way to test that really... Unless you have a crystal ball.

my aunt died when she was 4 as a result of measles. this was many years ago, but i don't think the disease is any milder now.

i had chickenpox when i was a child at the same time with my sister, who is 3 years younger. it was mild, but very uncomfortable. it also meant we had to stay at home until it was over. We also had mumps when we were kids. It wasn't as bad as chickenpox, though.

my son will have his mmr jab soon. he'll probably also get the chickenpox jab privately.

suggesting that these diseases are not dangerous is not logical imho.

Silver frog -Well if there was evidence that the vaccine was contra- indicated then I might feel differently, but it seems no matter how hard everyone tries there is no evidence of the MMR causing autism- and plenty of evidence to suggest that autism has other causes.

I was always told by my mum that the jab made my measles milder- that's evidence enough for me ,and she nearly died in the 1940s and she knows these things.

I had measles when I was 3 and lost the hearing in my right ear, and 30% in my left.

Now you see, I didn't mention mmr or autism. You said people who refuse to vaccinate increase the risk for others.

Injustices wondered whether you meant all unvaccinated people, and.all Jabs. I guess I have my answer.

Sorry, i just wondered, not injustices (must get home internet sorted out)

ItsAllGoingToBeFine
You are also not including the fact that measles can lead to learning disability.

And that the hypothesis about measles vaccination and autism is not exactly universally accepted...

Not getting into the whole vaccine debate.

However I think as parents our reactions to illness have moved on a lot since we were kids. When I had measles - aged six (and yes I was vaccinated), I was very ill, was kept in a quiet dark room for ten days, sponged down, attended by local GP and mum on a very regular basis. All other members of the family were excluded from the room I was in. I didn't return to school for about a month as I was 'convalescing' (I think I read more bloody Enid Blyton books during this month than the rest of my childhood put together).

Anyway, my point is this - perhaps our expectations of modern medicine mean we are not prepared for our children to need this type of care at home so we judge illnesses which require constant care as more serious than our parents would. My parents pretty much knew we'd all get various things - there were four of us, quite often we'd all get something together, but there wasn't such a rush to medicate, or even recover.

These days we expect to be able to cure anything pretty much instantly and think GPs have some magic medicines for pretty much everything. When of course they don't. So perhaps our expectations have moved rather than the diseases?

Phew, finally made my way through this thread!!! Even though it's digressed ever so slightly, I just wanted to add some of what I had discovered.

I was immunised against Chickenpox as an adult, as part of a pregnancy planning blood test I discovered I had never had it (even though my mother was absolutely positive I had!). I didn't want to risk catching it while pregnant because of the implications to my unborn child. (Nurse had had to treat a baby whose mother had caught chickenpox shortly before the birth and swore she would never knowingly allow that risk to happen again!!!!) When I asked the GP whether that meant I was more protected against shingles she said no, I wasn't. Being immunised left me just as susceptible to shingles as someone who had caught it naturally. So no difference really between the vaccine and catching the disease naturally.

Some further research on my own - Apparently the rate of shingles in the US has risen dramatically since the blanket immunisation of children. Apparently coming into contact with chickenpox fairly frequently boosts an adult's protection/immunity and they are then less likely to get shingles. Because adults are less likely to come into contact with chickenpox now their immunity is lower.

From my understanding measles has a far greater risk of side effects. Based on this I have chosen to give my DSs the MMR, but I would not get them immunised from the chickenpox as children, but would suggest to them that they get immunised as young adults if they hadn't caught it by then.