in thinking Measles can't be more dangerous now than it was 15 years ago ?

[Onajourney]

Hi

Wondering if there are any GP's out there that can tell me this ?

My eldest child is 15 and I still have his baby books and they say Measles is a mild disease and just to keep their temperature down etc, they liken it to chickenpox. I remember not being worried about it at all when he and his 11 year old brother were small.

Fast forward 14 years and we have a 1 year old who is at "huge risk from this killer disease" according our GP, but I can't understand how it can have changed so much.

Can anyone tell me, is Measles worse now than it was 15 years ago and if so why ?

Thanks

Well, the best approach is to stop children getting measles in the first place, hence the vaccination programmes. Unfortunately in developing countries there are other factors which prevent vaccines from protecting the most vulnerable in the population, and so treatment of cases becomes very important.

Re vitamin A: we know quite a bit but definitely not enough. Measles depletes serum retinol (Vit A), but a well-nourished individual should be able to replenish this from internal storage. Dietary deficiencies in parts of Africa for example, mean that it is unlikely that children can compensate for this loss of serum retinol during measles, which makes it a much more serious infection.

Re the levels: 200,000 IU in two doses has been shown in a few studies to have beneficial effect on mortality in developing countries, and currently recommended by the WHO. Also supported by a recent Cochrane review. It has been investigated in Japan, but only in one paper, I think, which is not enough to extend to the whole of the Northern hemisphere.

Besides, we have a perfectly good vaccine which prevents severe measles in the first place. It's not about profit, but simply that prevention is better than cure.

Regarding the Vitamin A question, I had a quick check.

Summary from the [http://www2.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab001479.html Cochrane Review 'Vitamin A for treating measles in children']]

"Measles is caused by a virus and possible complications include pneumonia. Measles is a major cause of death in children in low-income countries and is particularly dangerous for children with vitamin A deficiency. This review found that there was no significant reduction in mortality in children receiving vitamin A. However, vitamin A megadoses (200,000 international units on each day for two days) lowered the number of deaths from measles in hospitalized children under the age of two years. Two doses of vitamin A are not considered to be too expensive, and are not likely to produce adverse effects."

In other words it can help some children but those that are going to die will die anyway...

I'm not a medically qualified person at all btw (except for a red cross certificate I got when I was 15 ), but I do think the scientific method is the best way to approach such problems, and the Cochrane Reviews are an absolute diamond mine of information when it coems to making up your mind on an issue.

Sorry the link should be here:

Cochrane Review 'Vitamin A for treating measles in children'

"we have a perfectly good vaccine"

Actually we have an inadequately researched vaccine. Not perfectly good. Not perfectly safe. Not even well researched according to regular standards, never mind the further research being urged into sub-groups that can be affected more seriously.

It is hard, when you are inside the industry, to see how profit affects motive. Because you act in good faith, you imagine the industry acts in good faith.

It's clear that this is not always the case. I know a very very senior person, I mean unbelievably senior, in the pharmaceutical industry, who acts in supreme good faith, and it is inconceivable to this person that the tenet, the vaccination principle, that they have based his entire career and life around may be not as believed. Utterly, utterly, inconceivable. It is unquestionable. So I can see why you find it so difficult, Musukebba. Likewise GPs, with their couple of weeks on vaccination, and health visitors and so on.

I have an enormous amount of respect for medical and scientific professionals who have trained, researched, absorbed the vaccination principle at the breast, as it were, and at some point have been able to admit to themselves, oh fuck, basically. Maybe it's not alright after all.

Ps yes Cochrane is the source for the inadequately researched verdict on MMR.

It is just a scandal that whilst we are told that measles is a killer we are not told that it is likely that many well fed western children are vitamin A deficient, that measles depletes vitamin A and that that depletion inhibits the production of antibodies.

My eldest daughter reacts badly to vaccines and cannot be vaccinated against measles - we had to look for ages to find a doctor who had any level of competence in this area and knew any way we could protect her other than by a jab she cannot have.

It is just ridiculous that this easily available knowledge is not common knowledge amongst doctors and shared with parents.

pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/91/6/1176

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1625097

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1436764

yawn back to the MMR again

Why are you surprised?

Don't like it? There are many parents who can't afford to be bored by the MMR. Unless they're bored by their children's regression perhaps. That must be awfully dull.

Why not go onto a more interesting thread about tattoos, or chavs, so you don't have to think about it?

My sister and I had every childhood illness: measles mumps, rubella, chicken pox, whooping cough... Etc. My mum remembers it and doesn't remember there ever being any hysteria or anything surrounding any of them. They were just typical childhood diseases. She was from a family of 10 who also caught every disease, again with no complications nor did she know anyone who had any complications. I think we're always more likely to hear the negative experiences rather than the straightforward ones - especially now. It's worth remembering that for every complicated case there are thousands of uncomplicated ones.

According to the WHO administration of 2 doses of vit a reduces the risk of complications from measles by 50%

I will have a look at the links later, thanks for those.

My main question has been answered by a GP... Measles isn't any more dangerous than it was 15 years ago which is what I thought.

I think it is a bit naughty of my GP to tell me otherwise and to tell me my baby is facing a huge risk of catching a killer disease now. I understand she needs to keep up the vaccine rate but I don't think scaring people into it is the right way to go.

Nice links Beach. More than interesting.

If any of mine were to get measles I'd love to be able to supplement Vit A or have a doctor let me know how much, or test levels.

But how, when all we're told is "it's toxic" woo woo scary.

You cannot catch shingles from chicken pox, that is not how it works.

addicted - Measles virus did not "mutate" in the last 15 years. What on earth gives you that idea?

If it had, those of us who had measles thirty-odd years ago would suddenly be susceptible to this disease all over again. Even the vaccines would be worthless, since they have been using the same strain for decades. Which is clearly not the case.

Vitamin a toxicity is mainly in relation to direct retinoid intake as opposed to beta carotene intake ( from fruit and vegetables). Retinoid levels in the livers of carnivores are particularly high hence the sickness that arises from eating dog/polar bear liver.

Obviously a disease isn't going to seem mild if you get complications and die from it, but almost any illness/injury can lead to complications

However when I got measles (over 40 years ago) it was considered to be a nuisance. The general feeling was 'oh everyone gets that so it's best to get it and get it over with'.

Backtotalkaboutthis- there are plenty of MMR threads about- why make yet another thread vaguely related to it all about how awful the MMR vaccine is...and no ive not posted on threads about chavs and tattoos and have a brain in my head, so dont even try that passive agressive patronism on me.

and what's if it's not passive aggressive patronising?

you don't have much of a brain if you can't see that a thread on how much more dangerous measles is now perceived to be, is inevitably connected to vaccine promotion

why bother to post at all? is there some law that puts an upper limit on vaccine threads? are you going to tell on us?

All I can see is an excuse for certain posters to bang their drum yet again about the government conspiracy to harm our kids by giving the MMR vaccine. The OP didnt mention vaccination but some people cant help themselves really.

oh -- another one with no idea what they're talking about or intention of informing themselves

ten a penny

ahem cat I don't mean you

whoops

YANBU give it 10 years or so and we'll view chickenpox as life threatening too with everyone vaccinating against it.
Many in the USA consider chickenpox as a dangerous disease and wouldn't dream of not vaccinating.

Backtotalkaboutthis how do you know exactly how informed people are? Or does informed in your world = agree with what you say?

Can I ask why upporters of Wakefield are so bad tempered on these threads ? It was actually quite interesting and informative until the swearing statred and the sweeping generalistions about anyone pro MMR unable to 'engage the brain' or inform themselves. It really is quite tedious. Pagwatch and Beachcomber can present their arguments eloquently and (mostly) rationally without the need to swear and insult. Perhaps some of you could learn a thing or two from them as to be quite frank, your snarling attacks make you look like a bunch of foaming at the mouth fanatics.

Measles used to kill a lot of people back in the day- dont really think chickenpox can be compared but meh what do I know.