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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

another dog thread....

38 replies

macdoodle · 01/06/2010 00:06

Have been at my sisters this weekend with my 2 DD's age 2and half and nearly 9. They have a new baby nearly 3 months.
They have a lurcher, very placid and easy going, my DD's have known her for years.
On sunday, we went out for the day, DD2 spent the day holding/dragging the dog around, sitting next to her, stroking and patting her. She is gentle, not afraid of dogs, and knows how to behave, though like any 2 yr old can be a bit energetic !

That evening, me and mum were in the open plan kitchen, sister was out, BIL was upstaits with baby, and the dog was sat in her basket at the other end of the room.

I was watching DD2 but TBh the dog has known her her whole life so was not hypervigilant. Saw DD2 sit down next to her and lean over, heard the dog growl, and shouted at DD2 to get up, but then I think the dog went for her, it was all a bit of a blur, and not clear whether he went to bite or scratch her DD2 was screaming, I ran in, scopped her up (the dog didnt do anymore), and took her in the kitchen. Luckily he hadnt broken the skin but she has 2 nasty looking wheals across the side of her face
Dog seemed fine after, and DD2 happy to go back and pat her though I was very wary

Sister and BIL have poo-pooed it a bit, saying the dog was provoked ,and it was only a warning scratch, DD2 did no more than she has ever done, and I accept maybe the dog was fed up of being played with, but really?? No doubt she went for DD2 and could have hurt her They have a baby now in the house Though am not entirely sure what I would want them to do, they are devoted to the dog!

OP posts:
Original poster
macdoodle · 01/06/2010 00:08

FWIW I am quite laid back, not afraid of dogs, and not a over reactive mum, but I have to say it was one of the most heart stopping moments of my life

OP posts:
scurryfunge · 01/06/2010 00:09

They just need to watch the dog, that is all, don't quite trust it or the children on their own....treat it with respect and accept it may be unpredictable

larks35 · 01/06/2010 00:13

YABU for yet another dog thread. YANBU to be concerned about dogs with babies but I don't really know what else to say TBH. I wouldn't leave my DS playing with someone else's dog no matter what breed it was, cos he isn't used to dogs and wouldn't know where to stop in play mode. I think that's the key really, don't let babies/toddlers/small children who aren't used to dogs play with them alone.

So maybe (I'm judgey tonight) YWBU to leave your DD alone playing with the dog.

MillyR · 01/06/2010 00:14

I have just posted on the other thread about high risk behaviour around dogs. Some pieces of advice routinely given out that seem pertinent to your situation are:

  1. Any dog, however well trained, could bite.
  2. No young child should ever approach a dog alone as a dog is more likely to bite if a (dominant) adult is not present.
  3. No child should approach a dog if the owner is not present, as the dog is more likely to bite if the (dominant) owner is away.
  4. No child should be allowed to bother a dog that is in its bed, as a dog in its bed is more likely to feel threatened and bite.
  5. Children should try to avoid being close to the dog's face as a child is at eye level and dogs perceive direct eye contact as a threat.
  6. If a child feels threatened by a dog, they should stand still like a tree, or if on the ground, they should roll up like a rock.
Vallhala · 01/06/2010 00:15

"DD2 spent the day holding/dragging the dog around, sitting next to her, stroking and patting her. She is gentle, not afraid of dogs, and knows how to behave, though like any 2 yr old can be a bit energetic"

I think that might account for it tbh. I am very biased (dog owner for years, with DCs, rescuer, fosterer) and many will disagree with me, but imho this is a dog with no past history of aggression as far as you've made me aware, who had probably just had enough.

I'd suggest that you don't make a big issue of it for DDs sake as it would be a bad thing if she ended up scared of dogs, but that you in future make a big point of discouraging her from interacting with the dog too much. A stroke and a hello is fine, after that just leave the lurcher be would be my approach.

ShinyAndNew · 01/06/2010 00:19

Dogs in baskets are generally in baskets because they do not want to be disturbed. My dd2 learnt the way, that you do not disturb a resting dog. I did not consider getting rid of my dog, but I did reiterate to dd2 that she must never, ever go near the dog when he is sleeping and that if he growls it because he wants to be left alone.

Growling is good. He was warning your dd that he did not want her attention. When she didn't leave him alone immediately he snapped. Had he wanted to hurt her, he would have done so.

BIL is right. The dog was provoked. Teach your dd not to go near the dog when he is in his basket. In fact the best thing to do is teach her not to approach the dog at all, but call his name and let him come to her if he wants to.

Original poster
macdoodle · 01/06/2010 00:20

You are all absolutely right I agree, and I feel awful for letting DD2 be in that position, I do know better I think w ehad got complacent because she is usually a calm dog and had let Dd2 play happily with her all day

We have just told DD2 that "SXXX" was sleeping in her bed and got grumpy because DD2 woke her up and gave her a shock, like when mummy is grumpy when you wake her up!
And told her she has to be more careful not to scare her! But it was very scary at least for me and my mum (who was in tears)!

The moral is all dogs no matter how good are still animals and unpredictable, and I am glad I learnt that lesson without too much damage (and am very very glad my XH is away because he would go mad), am just I think a bit concerned that sis/BIL dont really see it and am a bit concerned for my nephew

OP posts:
Original poster
macdoodle · 01/06/2010 00:22

Shiny I like that, telling her not to approach the dog but to call her over to her!

OP posts:
MillyR · 01/06/2010 00:25

Macdoodle, I think you could maybe point out to your family how important it is as their child gets older that she is taught how to behave around dogs, and that they don't allow the child to be alone with the dog until the child is a lot older.

hmc · 01/06/2010 00:25

I don't think that it is a 'bad' dog as such (probably fed up with the attention it was getting) - but you are right, your sister and BIL will have to wise up and be more vigilant with this dog around children.

Glad your dd was not seriously hurt - what a shock for you both!

ShinyAndNew · 01/06/2010 00:27

Presumably your nephew will be taught the correct way to behave around the dog and will be supervised with the dog until he is at least 10 years of age, if not older, depending upon the relationship between child and dog.

He will be fine.

Dd2 was snapped at once, after having me constantly tell her to leave the dog be when resting. I was in the room at the time, but they were behind me and I didn't notice dd2 approach the dog. She had sneaked in from the living room. The dog and I were in the dining room. Once was all it took to get into her head that the dog will growl/snap at/scratch her if she upsets him. She always calls him to her now. She was not hurt but it was enough to teach her.

larks35 · 01/06/2010 00:27

I imagine your sis/bil will teach their DS an appropriate way to be with the dog and train the dog an a appropriate way to be with their DS. I also hope they won't leave the two alone, especially when one is sleeping but the other wants to play! What else are you expecting them to do? Ditch the dog?

chixinthestix · 01/06/2010 00:27

In my experience (of 5 family pet dogs over the course of my life) all dogs, even the loveliest natured will eventually get hacked off after a lot of petting and attention from a small child. A couple of our dogs in particular saw their bed as their own sanctuary and would 'defend' it from a small child who they saw as the next nearest in status to them on the family pecking order.

As scurryfunge says, you can never quite trust them together as you can't predict every event. My children have learned to give the dog his own space, but have been occasionally growled at when they don't. At least your sister knows that there is an element of doubt with her dog now and you will no doubt be far more vigilant with your own DCs around it.

PiscesLondon · 01/06/2010 00:30

hmmm....

i'm posting on another thread about dogs at the moment and can see all sides, but for me i would never leave my child unattended with a dog, no matter if it was a dog that my child had known and been around alot from birth. i'm really funny about this.

i'm sorry you got such a fright, it must have been awful, but hopefully a lesson has been learned and you will make sure your DD is never left at the other end of the room with any dog again. i would also tell your sister that you don't think it's a good idea to ever leave her baby unattended with the dog, even for a split second. i suppose your sister and her hubby will just have to be extra vigilant as the dog has proved that it will attack, provoked or otherwise. (i am guessing all dogs have it in them)

Original poster
macdoodle · 01/06/2010 00:30

larks...maybe yes
I'm not sure TBH, but I was always a bit wary even before this happened, they live in a tiny house, and she is a big dog, its been years since I have had a dog, and am not sure I was entirely comfortable with big dog/small house/little baby I accept in this IABU

OP posts:
BritFish · 01/06/2010 00:46

macdoodle, you have handled this thread really well!
[sorry, im ridiculously grateful to posters who dont think all dogs are vicious violent creatures who attack children without any provocation on a regular basis ]

PiscesLondon · 01/06/2010 00:48

milly those are excellent tips and i'll be teaching them to my DD as soon as she's old enough to understand.

shinyandnew again, that's a great tip about calling the dog over to you. i will be teaching DD that one too.

macdoodle YANBU to be concerned for your nephew. maybe tell your sis and BIL about the tips given on here and just be honest and let them know that you don't think it's ever a good idea for the baby and dog to be left alone. hopefully they have sense and will take on board what you've said, which i'm sure they will, especially after the scare with your DD.

lovingthesun · 01/06/2010 01:35

just wanted to say very glad DD is ok (& you of course)

BUT perhaps the pulling around of the dog all day needs to be re-thought ? Don't push the good nature of the dog- it's not a toy.

HanBanan · 01/06/2010 06:22

Keep the dog seperated from children at all times. Once it snaps that's it, the doorway is open and it is highly likely to bite.

That said just tell your sis that you don't feel comfy with the dog near your kids and if she's cool like you then she'll say 'no probs, I'll pop him in the garden'. And then the situation will not arise.

Dogs react differently to kids because as you said they don't like being pulled and tugged etc. But also I think they see kids as part of the pack and aren't afraid to give them a 'nip' or worse to put them in their place.

HanBanan · 01/06/2010 06:25

Ps I love dogs and don't think they're all nasty, or even that this dog is 'nasty'. Just that dogs are dogs and they have certain behaviours and that's it.

sunnydelight · 01/06/2010 06:45

It's amazing how many people have dogs and children who live happily together when you look at MN recently!

darkandstormy · 01/06/2010 07:59

The poor dog was clearly fed up of being harassed and wanted to retreat to his basket for "space", you should have told the child not to bother him anymore.People need to remember that dogs are not toys,nor are they entertainment for small children.He does not sound nasty or aggressive just really fed up or in pain.

sarah293 · 01/06/2010 08:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

ShinyAndNew · 01/06/2010 08:20

'Once it snaps that's it, the doorway is open and it is highly likely to bite. ' - . I am confused. You sound very sensible in the rest of the post. Are trying to say that now the dog has snapped (after being pushed far enough) it will become aggressive?

That it will only happen if no one listens to the dog. It was warning the op's child that it had had enough. That is all. Nothing neurological changed. It has not suddenly turned from being a placid family pet to a potential serial killer. Any dog will growl/snap if it pushed far enough. Any animal, including humans and fluffykins the cat, will snap if pushed far enough. But it doesn't mean we 'change' and a doorway to our dark side is opened

Sunnydelight, I was raised with a variety of 'dangerous' dogs. We never not had a dog, even when I was a baby. I have never been bitten. I was taught to respect the dog and it's space. I have been growled at when I pushed my luck. But that's about it. The vast majority of dogs never bite. Just like the vast majority of cars are not involved in hit and runs and the vast majority of humans are not serial killers.

Fluffyone · 01/06/2010 08:43

Nice dogs and children can live quite happily together with some ground rules. That includes the adults supervising the children when they are with the dog, to make sure the nice dog doesn't get run ragged by the children. The thing your sister and BIL need to do is to make sure that their nice dog gets a bit of peace from children and doesn't have to put up with being dragged about.
We always had dogs in our family when I was growing up, and we learnt to be fair to them. Just because this dog gave a warning snap doesn't mean some sort of mental barrier has been crossed and it should be separated from children forever. It just spent a very patient day putting up with too much attention and eventually, probably after a few tries at leaving or retreating to it's bed, it gave a warning snap. It's not turned into a potential child biter because of that. It is a very patient dog.