in thinking that the Government cannot possibly ensure people are better off working than on benefits unless they increase wages massively?

[TheJollyPirate]

TBH I cannot see how the Govt are going th achieve their aim to make sure "nobody is better off financially on benefits than in work".

I work part-time as I have a son with a disability. I take home £849 and get Tax credit of £190 plus Child benefit of course - Working Tax credit adds another £50 - all in all just over £1100. I am just over the limit for housing benefit and all other help although if DLA is approved for my son that may change a bit.

One of my families gets housing benefit of £700 a month plus tax credit, plus income support, plus child benefit. On paper at least they out-strip me and unless wages drastically improve (oh - was that a recession I just saw over there) then nothing much CAN change. The Govt are talking big but cannot deliver no matter what they say.

I will stay worse off financially than the family I work with who will remain unemployed because wages are NEVER going to amount to enough for them to get work and maintain their home. Not their fault and I am more fortunate in other ways but financially - nah - they are doing a bit better than me (but probably only just).

I am watching the Govt but not holding my breath on this one.

Or do you know different?

If so - explain because I am being a bit thick about it.

I am pregnant with my second and as I am on minimum wage will get enough to cover the child care bill for both through tax credits as I have already checked.

Everyone thinks differently but I would rather the four of us lived in this 2 bed, poky flat for the whole of their childhoods and know I have earnt it. Its the way I am if I didnt work and my husband was the same wage I could have a house but I refuse to do that. As long as you get a job when the kids are at school then thats ok but if you dont I stand by what I have said

"I dont believe in claiming benefits and I am on the minimum wage and always have been. I have a work ethic and unless the person is sick or just needs temporary help then I believe they should be working."

Before my disability I was the same. Then I got made redundant and couldn't find a job. I avoided applying for JSA until I'd literally run out of money and could only afford a loaf of bread a week. A work ethic is all well and good, but it didn't help me then. What would you suggest I'd done then?

spookycharlotte121 - Also I have read that you are at uni so you are doing something so you are obviously not someone I am on about. I am on about people who do nothing at all.

Kaloki - As I said I fully support benefits for the disabled. I believe in giving more to the disabled and taking it away from people who dont work for years (such as the ones I have outlined earlier in the thread). If they took away money from them ie ones that have houses that are too big or think just because they have had kids they dont have to work until their kids until they are 18 etc then there would be more money for the disabled who actually need it.

I don't see how Government action can impact wages, unless you're proposing increasing the minimum wage.

What they'll quite likely do, is reduce benefits

Here here Sunshine!

Sunshine I'm not talking about disability though. I'm talking about minimum wage - I put in the disability in case anyone remembers me mentioning it before and calls me on it.

It still stands that if I was in a minimum wage job I wouldn't be able to afford to move somewhere cheaper.

And it also doesn't change the fact that when I couldn't find a job I had no choice but to go on benefits - no work ethic in the world would help me then.

Especially as at the time I had moved to cheaper area to rent - but when I lost my job I then couldn't afford to commute to the nearest large town to work.

Its not as black and white as that though is it.

sorry if i got stroppy but i get aangry with the whole benefits slagging thing. I also live in an area whre people seem to never work and spend all day in the pub.... the area is okish.... there are high levels of crime and i think racism is pretty rife but other than that its not too bad, in my city there are much worse areas... nobody round here appears to work. i cant say for sure if they do or not as i know very few people.

Think of it this way though... would you actually like to sit at home all day? I have done it for 3 days a week for the past 4 years and Im gagging for a job. Those people must either not have much to strive for in life or must feel very low. I get really bad depression when Im stuck in but at least I know there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

I think in many areas claiming benefits has become the done thing. But if its going to be resolved we need to look much deeper than just pushing people into jobs they dont want like the tories have proposed. I think they need to start in schools, break the trend of kids following their parents in claiming from the day they leave school and give them somethig to aspire to.

I think the media mayhave become slightly obsessed with their view of benefit claiments and have distorted this. I believe that most of the people claaiming them need them and are deservinng of them and only a handfull aare doing it through dishonesty.

"Think of it this way though... would you actually like to sit at home all day? I have done it for 3 days a week for the past 4 years and Im gagging for a job. Those people must either not have much to strive for in life or must feel very low. I get really bad depression when Im stuck in but at least I know there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

I believe that most of the people claaiming them need them and are deservinng of them and only a handfull aare doing it through dishonesty."

I agree totally.

spookycharlotte121 - Its not that bad staying at home all day. Also I dont believe that it is all from parents who have never worked either. A lot of the people I knows parents are ashamed of todays benefit culture. They are proper working class people who work and look after what they have. My neigbours are like that they have lived in the flat for over 40 years and both work and still work.

They have brought up their kids there and they agree about the benefit culture and how it has brought down the area. People here think why work when you can get more for free of course they are going to. We have a very low rate of crime here and no racism really (we only have polish people you never see black people etc as I am in South West).

I will admit I have thought it in the past but I dont want my children to have to see that. Just because you are not very clever or on the minimum doesnt mean you cant take pride in your job. All jobs are important from the lowest paid to the highest.

sunshine2010 no racism really (we only have polish people you never see black people etc as I am in South West).

I dont know what part of the South West you live in but thats where I live and there is a multi cultural society,dd attends one Secondary school and ds another and there are children from a great number of ethnic backgrounds at both schools.

As for saying there is no racism here,that is rubbish,the South West suffers as much from racism as any other part of the country,I know, I have suffered from racism to the degree that a Police Officer telling me that if they had been made aware of it at the time,then they would have launched an investigation with a view to prosecuting the offenders.

The system has needed an overhaul for a long time. The elder generation I know despair of what the country has become - a place where you don't need to work and can claim all and sundry.

Those that work should never be worse off than those that don't so benefits so need to be cut or replaced by a new scheme. Raising min wage wont work as not all employers can afford this and it also doesn't help with benefit costs for those that don't work. We also need to cut the countries debt and benefits is a start.

Benefits should be a short term safety net (not talking disability), there to provide welfare assistance to those in need. They should not allow people to stay on JSA for years, or IS to be paid to people with children who don't work to support them. ESA also needs to be more reviewed - those capable of some form of work should do so.

If there are not enough jobs then it wouldn't be too hard for the government to set up schemes where people can assist in the community in return for their benefits - would help communities, boost peoples cv's and they would be more likely to seek proper work instead.

The benefit cycle will simply continue generation after generation if we don't break the cycle. So many children grow up in benefit households and go onto claim themselves as they see it as the norm and that you don't have to work to have a home and money provided - its that we need to change.

Having a harsher benefit system may also help our teen pregnancy rate and help stop people having children that they have no means/intention of supporting.

whoever it was further up who managed to work earlys,nights, shifts and weekends - well done. I couldn' do it. For starters the childcare just doesn't exist.

Am now back from the Drs (1hrs wait = waste of a f*cking taxi fare to make sure I didn't miss after I messed up the times earlier), and have to go and sit in the Job Centre for god knows how long now so I can tell them that "no things haven't changed, I haven't had a change of heart and gone back to my fuckwit exH"

Still makes a bloody change from sitting in the h ouse for 3/4 of my week......

HappyMummy - I agree totally

"If there are not enough jobs then it wouldn't be too hard for the government to set up schemes where people can assist in the community in return for their benefits - would help communities, boost peoples cv's and they would be more likely to seek proper work instead."

Love that idea. Would have really appreciated it while unemployed and job hunting.

"ESA also needs to be more reviewed - those capable of some form of work should do so."

To be honest the ESA reviews at the moment are a total joke. And spectacularly unfair to the disabled. Have had so many arguments with them recently.

Those on Incapacity Benefit that could work probably means that they might be capable of certain jobs if trained. A builder with a back problem for example might not be able to work as a builder but could perhaps carry out office work IF trained and IF the working conditions allow time off for hospital appintments etc and accept that there may be days he CANNOT work.

I have no problem with them overhauling the system and looking seriously at it for the benefit of the families I work with who want to work but who cannot find anything which pays the rent/council tax etc AND allow them to live. Although come to think of it once I've paid the rent and council tax plus taken off petrol, electricity, water etc there is not much left either. Either way to be on a low income is crap at times and I think longingly of the days when I worked full time and raked in £34K.

I will still be interested to see how all this pans out. I do see people who have never worked and who openly say they have no intention of working either (one man told me with breathtaking annoyance that he "wouldn't have the time" as he enjoys fishing and running and going to the gym). Most (in fact the vast majority) of non-working people I see tell me that they want to work and many are taking steps to try and achieve their aim by doing skills training. One single Dad is doing an electrical basics course and other bits in the hope that he can get onto training as an electrician. Yet the Daily Mail would see him as a single Dad, on benefits contributing nothing. As always the truth is never that simple in most cases.

ESA (incapcity benefit) is a nightmare to get, exH was initially refused it after his initial review, he appealed and 2nd time round they looked at the evidence from his psychiatric team and awarded it to him, he's on the lower rate "moving towards work" - but not (well as of 3 months ago - don't know about now) "fit" for work.

And of course the housing benefit bill rose during 2009/2010 - more people were losing their jobs and unable to pay the rent so had to claim........

Well I'm currently not even doing anything to et myself back into work as I had to drop out of my OU course this year

"Those on Incapacity Benefit that could work probably means that they might be capable of certain jobs if trained."

It will also include (at the moment) all those who are awaiting tribunals who have "failed" medicals. I know a few whose reports from their "failed" medical are bizarre to say the least. (Eg. claimant with chronic fatigue syndrome according to the medical "does not suffer fatigue" )

sunshine which area of the southwest do you live in? Just wondering as im in bristol, close to southmead.

I agree with others that there needs to be an overhaul in the system. i have been saying it for years. Exp's mother claimed incapacity benefit for sciatica..... this ofcourse was complete bull... she was perfectly fine. Just too lazy to work. She did suffer from a back problem at times, I will agree but it wasnt so bad that it stopped her going out to work. She even tried to stop her dd dropping out of school as she would lose her alowance for her as she was registered disabled. These are the people who need to be made to go out and work. I just fear that changes to the benefits system will effect those who genuninly need them and put them in a very difficult position. I also think tht once your children as of school age there is no reason not to work but summer holiday scheemes that are affordable should be put in place to ensure this is possible.

"Those on Incapacity Benefit that could work probably means that they might be capable of certain jobs if trained. A builder with a back problem for example might not be able to work as a builder but could perhaps carry out office work IF trained and IF the working conditions allow time off for hospital appintments etc and accept that there may be days he CANNOT work."

Those are big 'ifs'. I can't see many employers gagging to employ somebody who's going to cost them time and money in sick leave and time off for hospital appointments. Certainly not when they can take their pick of the dozens of other non-disabled candidates who apply for every job nowadays. It's all wishful thinking. In an ideal world, a long-term unemployed builder with a bad back could retrain and could find an office job with a sympathetic employer. In reality, it's disingenuous to imagine the employment market works like that. It's even more complicated with things like mental illness, where you can be on top of the world one day and at the bottom of a black hole for the next week, without knowing when it's going to happen.

Yes, generational benefit dependency is a problem, and I also think it's disingenuous to deny that. But cutting benefits doesn't solve the problem. It doesn't make somebody with no skills more skilled. It doesn't make somebody who's been out of the workplace for years a better prospect. It doesn't make employers want to hire them any more. Cutting the benefits of families will mean thousands of children living in poverty, whilst their parents remain unable to find work.

I used to work for a big firm of accountants, and for a while the person sitting opposite me was (physically) disabled - he had a form of muscular dystrophy and was in a wheelchair.

I had no end of respect for him because he was earning a really good wage (he was a senior manager so am guessing around £75k, this was back in around 2000) and totally self sufficient - he had a parking space in the building and an electronic wheelchair that he drove into his car.

I know not all disabilities are the same but after seeing him I think that most people with physical disabilities are capable of some form of work. They might need retraining, but he was an inspiration.