SENCO assistants offered by nursery

[mrspir8]

HIya all, I would really appreciate some advice here.

Some of you may know that we have been having some problems getting DD (2.9 yrs old)dry at nursery. At home we have been daytime nappyfree since end of Feb, that took about 5 days before I was content that if she needed to go she would ask, we do have the odd accident from time to time, mostly poos but generally she is brilliant.
Yet at nursery she simply refuses to be dry, she will go to the toilet with the other kids but not do anything then 5 mins later will wet herself. She has never pooed in the toilet at nursery and poos herself almost everday she is there. (2.5 days a week) For a while we seemed to be getting there with wees but she seems to have gone backwards again.

I have had long discussions about it with the nursery nurses, they have tried everyday reward tactic they know of. We have taken her own potty in and that made no difference as she always wants to use the toilets there. It's got to the stage now where they are having to physically carry her to the toilets when she is showing signs she needs to go-even when she is crossing her legs and holding herself they ask if she wants to go and the answer is always no. She shouts no and screams if they ask too often and yet she is not actually performing when she goes to the bathroom willingly. When asked about it DD also says she likes pooing her pants, wants to do it in front of her freinds and thinks it's funny.
The nursery nurses are saying that they are happy to carry on and not to put her back in nappies but I am getting really fed up with lack of progress (and the washing!!!!)

On Tuesday, I was approached by the manager after I picked up DD who said she wanted to discuss this with me. I did say I am my wits end with it to her at which point she said would I like her to get the SENCO in.

I have a proper meeting with her about it on friday after I have dropped off DD-I dont wish to discuss it in front of DD as I think this would be unhelpful to the situation if she is doing it for "attention"

So my questions are this?

Is this too much of a reaction from the nursery?
I have never had any dealings with a SENCO before, what they are going to do?
Does the situation even warrant a SENCO on board?
Is it likely the nursery is at fault here? Not approaching her the right way or using the wrong tactics?
What am I to do?

If they want to get a SENCO in just because a 2yr-old isn't toilet-trained then I would say that they are completely over-reacting here. Lots of children just aren't ready at that age.

If it's part of a bigger picture and they have other concerns then they should be telling you what those other concerns are.

If they are physically carrying her there to make her go then I think they are potentially causing more problems.

I'm not a toilet-training expert but I would say that she just isn't ready to take this next step at nursery just yet. I think the nursery needs to back off a bit and wait until she is ready.

If it is any help, ds is the opposit and totally dry at nursery but soiled and wet at home. We have tried everything and have decided that he is still young and we should not stress so he is now in pants at nursery and pull ups at home. This seems to have resolved some of the stress and he does now sometimes ask at home (not all the time though...) This might be the way forward as if she is doing it for attention, this won't reward that behaviour but doesn't punish her either.

Maybe they want a SENCO purely because the SENCO has more experience and/or is the most appropriately experienced or senior member of staff in that particular setting and they would value his/her opinion e.g. to observe and/or recommendations to the tactics they are using.

The SENCO in one of the schools I was using was brilliant and was approached about everything because of that, maybe not a sinister response?

I'd put her straight back into nappies for nursery.

Mrsbean-thank you-I didn't consider it to be sinister. i am grateful to be offered the option and it was simply that only an offer of the help available not an insistance on the nursery's part.
I simply have no idea of what a SENCO's role is having never had to deal with one before. The situation is bothering me a great deal at present and I believe it was offered in a genuine response to my reaction rather than the other way round.

a SENCO is a special educational needs co ordinator and your nursery is totally overeacting to what is a perfectly normal situation. there is no reason why your child should be potty trained at this age. why not wait a while longer until your child is really ready? much easier on you and your chil

I didn't even attempt toilet training until 3 yrs because i'd read up until that point with a lot of children you are just catching it nothing else.
I too would put her back in pull ups for nursery.

It's an over reaction by the nursery. It's normal for a child of 2.9 to still not be toilet trained. It maybe that she just doesn't like using toilets outside of her home. My eldest daughter would rather hold on untill she got home than use tiolets at school or anywhere else.

Just another quick though-am I being unreasonable to think that the nursery are at fault in some way? A few weeks ago I came to pick her up about 20 mins earlier than normal and caught a nursery nurse telling her off for messing herself and saying with anger in her voice that it was dirty and not funny.

I never said anything because it was that girls last day and I never liked her much anyway, I put it down to last day frustrations she never seemed very happy in her job-I do intend to mention it now when I meet nursery manager on Friday as looking back I think it ws a factor in the "going backwards"

I don't think it's an overreaction, not at this point anyway. I think the manager was probably just thinking "Who else might be able to come up with some strategies to help with this" and the SENCO is perhaps someone who's been involved before.

So if it's just a round the table brainstorming type meeting, which it sounds like, I'd go for it - someone might know a tip or trick that will be the thing that works and that someone just might be the SENCO for you.

If, when you get there, it turns into a special needs type discussion, then I'd say that was an overreaction and just to say that you're grateful for any suggestions but apart from that, you're just going to give it another few months and see how it pans out.

SENCOs have often accumulated many litle tricks or strategies along the way - and they can work just as well for children without SNs as for those with. For example, if this is an attention seeking elements going on (and I'm not saying there is, just something you mentioned) then she might have worked with other children displayin similar behaviours with success. Or she might have other strategies in terms of how your daughter can communicate that she needs to go, or other ideas for reward type strategies. She might have learnt them in terms of children with SN, but they might well work for your daughter even though she doesn't have any. Do you see what I mean?

From how you've written it it just sounds like the manager spoke to you, you said you were at your wits end and so she was just trying to think a bit laterally as to who else might be able to help.

Go for it at this stage, I say.

Maybe she likes all the attention she is getting at nursery - a kind of power thing

Could they not tone it all down, so she doesn't get all that attention. Just put her back in pullups, and ignore the whole issue for a couple of weeks.

When she says she thinks it's funny, perhaps that's true. After all, it's a good way to be naughty without actually being told off.

Is it a nursery based at a school or a private one? The reason I ask is that while it could be relatively easy for a school SENCO to drop in, a private nursery would probably need to call in an Area SENCO. I think an Area SENCO would be extremely surprised to receive a referral for a 2yr-old who was dry at home but not using a toilet at nursery. (My two older children were both under the care of an Area SENCO at pre-school due to SN).

I seriously think that the nursery are going about this all wrong if they think that getting angry with your dd or carrying her off to the toilet will help her overcome the problem.

A better option would be to encourage her to tell them why she doesn't like the nursery toilets. She might say that it's because she thinks it's funny to wet herself but could this be a cover for something else perhaps? Sometimes they can be a scary place, smell funny, make strange noises etc.

I'm not sure whether a SENCO would have any extra knowledge of toilet training as she is an expert in educational needs but I wouldn't see any harm in having a chat with her/him in case they have an pearls of wisdom.

WRT not liking your daughter being told off. I would agree that this is inappropriate and would bring this up in the meeting with the manager and describe what you saw and confirm that this is not the approach that the other staff take.

I had EXACTLY the same problem with DS at this age but he was with a childminder. It actually led to a very acrimonious finishing of my relationship with the childminder as she blamed me and didn't believe that ds was better at home. She accused me of minimising the problem and got quite angry.

I think looking back that it was combination of training Ds too early (partly my mistake but the CM encouraged me to do so) and that the CM found it so stressful. She did have other concerns in that she had other children to look after and she had taken on too many nursery/school runs and couldn't cope with the accidents. However I really did not worry about the odd accident at home and didn't get stressed by it in any way really (a complete first for me BTW!)

The stress the CM felt was obvously affecting ds which made him more stressed and so he wet more. A sort of vicious circle really.

The CM was however not willing to see it this way and insisted on blaming ds (he was lazy and manipulative apparently) and me (I was doing it all wrong)

If the CM had been willing to see the situation differently and work on how she dealt with it rather than focussing on blame, I'd have left ds there but in the end I removed Ds from that situation and he changed overnight.

He started at a nursery instead (he was 3 years old) and from day 1 I was told that his toilet training seemed very good for his age. He had some problems settling at the nursery due in no small part I believe to him being upset as to how the relationship with the CM ended but his toilet training didn't backslide.

I am special ed trained and deal with potty training issues. I also have a 2 year old who has recently regressed. Doesn't want to sit on the toilet at nursery or at home. It's pretty common.

I don't think a SENCO needs to be involved, unless informally for strategies. Do they have other reasons to bring a Senco in? Toilet training is not really a specific Senco area unless there are other concerns, seems a bit bizarre to me.

There is some research that suggests training between 2-2.5 is a good time to start. Also I think that this is a behavioural thing, sounds like she is having lots of fun! She is getting a lot of attention for negative behaviour.

I would suggest that minimal attention is given to soiling etc. Quick change no talking or discussing. Also redirecting the other kids at this time could help. Lots of positive attention for doing the right thing. But then that's the nursery's job and maybe why they need the Senco in as they don't know what to do.

I would agree with what other people have said. I am a nursery teacher in a school nursery and am also the school SENCO. If the SENCO in school is being asked to look at your child or speak to you then its no big deal. They might just have some stratergies that could help if the soling is a way of getting attention.

I personally would say that 2.9 is still very young and not being toilet trained by then is not a problem.

I would put her back in pullups/nappies and not make a big issue of things. It sounds to me like the nursery has made a big thing about it and perhaps your dd is enjoying the attention she is getting.

Perhaps try again with toileting at nursery in a few months.

I can't understand why they are fussing over a child of that age not being dry. there are kids in my son's reception class who still aren't completely reliably every day.

Have you tried putting knickers under a nappy at nursery? That way she gets the discomfort of wet/dirty pants but saves you doing the washing and the staff cleaning her up (as well as minimising the attention she will get) if you don't want to put her back in nappies

Personally I'd put her back in nappies and let her decide when she wants to be "a big girl" at nursery. You she can be dry so it is either stress/some aversion to the toilets at nursery or it is for attention - either way this would resolve it.

Eventually she will want to be a big girl? Or does she really like being babied?

Thanks guys-some really sound advice here. I am really grateful for any imput at this stage. I think I will try the pants under nappy thing or some training knickers for a while-she has been so good at home it seems a shame to go backwards.Plus DD says that she really doesn't want to wear nappies. Another couple of weeks could make all the difference. It's comforting to know that it's not extreme in anyway.

I think I may just discuss strategies with manager this time, plus discuss the issue of the telling off. If it's still going on in another month I will review it with her then and maybe consider the SENCO.

The other person I considered contacting is my HV-not seen her since DD was 9 months old so maybe a good time!

Erm - I didn't manage to train ds until he was three - just ahead of state nursery - we had the same thing - he refused to use their loo (not too bad give he's only there short afternoons) - I gave up on it and the nursery were cool and happy to give him a change of clothing.

The accidents stopped there and 7 months on he's used their loo for the first time.

He's got a thing about other people's toilets.

Total overreaction imo, she is only 2.9, many young children arent ready until they are 3.5 sometimes 4. No way is a SENCO needed, carry on as you are an eventually she will get it. All the fuss that is being made is probably putting stress on her, try going to the loo under stress. If she wets at nursery she wets so what! Calm down and chill, your dd is still only little. I am trying to train dd 3.2 and I am having the same problem as you, but know that she will do it in her own time, and the less I am stressed about it the better.

She goes to a pre school who is totally wonderful, they have told me the same thing, that dd is still only little and to give it time, and that there are many children there who are still in nappies. The teacher there said taht a few picked it up when they were 4.

Hi, ex SENCO here!

Is this too much of a reaction from the nursery?
The SENCO is the person who can oversee your child's issue. Instead of everybody having an idea it will all go through him or her so it will be more consistent and organised.

I have never had any dealings with a SENCO before, what they are going to do?

Firstly they will identify the problem. When do they have accidents? Has anything changed recently? Exactly what does she do at home? The SENCO wil arrange or carry out lots of observations to try to find patterns or reasons of her behaviour. Maybe she doesn't like a certain person in the toilet or something. The SENCO will then draw up an action plan with you and help the staff carry it out. They will then see if it worked.
Basically: observe, plan, assess.

Does the situation even warrant a SENCO on board?

The SENCO will have extra training in the area of finding solutions to problems. People might hear "Special Educational Needs" and start thinking of Stephen Hawking. SEN issues could include asthma, glasses or just being more worried than normal about starting school. Nearly all children have a need for something or other at some point in their life.

Is it likely the nursery is at fault here?

Could be. The SENCO will try to find out who or what could be changed to help.

Not approaching her the right way or using the wrong tactics?

Maybe.

What am I to do?

Stop calling them THE SENCO and start calling them Claire or whatever their name is. It's just a person who is trying to help.

Message me if you want a proper chat.