In not having much sympathy with a couple on £45k plus per year having some benefits cut?

[ssd]

There is loads of this on the news just now about how "middle income" families will be having some child tax credits cut and might be paying more tax. They news are showing what to me looks like comfortable off families having to do with a bit less. Is this really so bad? I know an income of £45-£50k per year might not be much in central London but will keep you in style in parts of the north, but how bad will it be? So people might have to change jobs/give up the second car/holiday at home instead of Spain every year? SO WHAT? There are plenty of us living on less than £25k a year who have had to cut back since having kids and take this as a fact of life.

I know MN is made up of mostly middle earners and I'll get pelters for this, but I don't really care. Anyone I know on a middle income can afford to give up some things _ its called life.

what more could i ask for!

Isn't it 25% of DLA or 40% claimants who claim to have depression? Obviously some will have it but tons of them are a load of skivers who know DLA is higher than other benefits so they move to that bandwaggon. Then for the others depends onthe disability. Those who can sit and home and enter data at a keyboard can obviously be employed on work fare. The blind can answer phones. Some may have a very low IQ but could still sweep parks, move supermarket trollesy around. Some will obviously be very very disabled and unable to do any form of work and everyone would agree they need to be looked after.

It's true most people don't work as hard as I do and also provable that the higher your IQ the more likely you are to earn more so I stand by those comments. I did used to see 5am to 7am on Saturday morning before the baby twins woke up at working horus. Not everyone is prepared to do that. You reap what you sow. But of course plenty of people live no very infertile soil... ie Scotland and the North where you've sheep, no entreprise and deep fat fried mars bars so it gets harder which is when you get on your bike etc etc....

But certainly it's not easy for many. I've student children. I know how hard even in the SE it is at the moment even to get summer jobs, even working for no money placements. It's very very tough. But don't give up. I would say 80% of the things I try have failed but some succeed. You just keep plugging away and having fun.

I don't actually know my working hours and home and work intertwine. My daughter is working pretty hard, probably harder than I am at the moment. I'd bid for a two jobs by 6.30am today. I agree there are plenty of hard workers who do 6 hours house cleaning a day and then the evening shift doing the loos at Heathrow adn then have jobs in pubs and then an al day Sat job in a shop etc etc plus they may have a high IQ too.

But I do think women are doing so well. We are forming more and more businesses as happened in the last recession. In some ways recessions are opportunities as well as threats.

Someone asked aout the inflation rate. From memory now 3.5%.

Yes, I was just thinking that you can never have seen a DLA form before..

I also have a high IQ (could read before I was 2, not that you can tell from how I type on here) and now work 10 hours a week as a dental receptionist...having to look after DD who is disabled you see.

so..life is not that simple for a LOT of people, sadly.

gaelicsheep - I am hoping it is not true. It just seems to be commented on a lot on here. I would be very pleased if they are just rumours!

lg36 - you must be entitled to the childcare element of tax credits on that income with childcare costs that high? When we had a joint income of 45k a year and childcare costs at that level we had around £400 a month (but I could never work out what bit was for what, we had the under one element etc).

There is something wrong there - ring them and check?

'But certainly there is a band of people who work full time and are not that well off and indeed some have less money coming in than those who don't work.'

We're in that category. So we will need to swap shifts out and both work FT.

I honestly don't see why that is such a travesty.

And for the thousandth time I'm not talking about people who are not able to work.

I've had depression for nearly 7 years now. Quite honestly, except in fairly severe cases, you can still work whilst having it.

Also, there are a lot of folks who do take the piss on benefits.

We have lived in two council areas now and personally know several people who have 6+ children and have never worked in their lives, DH has a family member who does this, married couples who have no intention of working and really do have a very good standard of living (and no, they are not in debt, defrauding the system or getting gifts/money from family or relatives), people who work on the side.

I don't report people like that. I don't blame people for staying on benefits because they do often pay more than low-paid work.

But my message to people like this is to start wising up, because that party is going to be over.

Oh, and another thing, all this 'make benefits claimants work', why does no one ever mention making prisoners work?

Why not start with them?

'The only benefit I get is £20 per week Child Benefit (NOTHING ELSE ? NO TAX CREDITS, NO HELP TOWARDS NURSERY FEES - NOTHING) which if you?ve ever been to London, you?ll know is the cost of a couple of tube rides if you?re lucky. No matter what state the countries finances are in, if the government were willing to help me out financially I?d take it in a heartbeat. So please, please do not think that every family who earns 45k is well off ? it very much depends on where you live.'

Since when is it the government's job to make parents' of young childrens' lives easier?

My dad said it best: if you want an easy life, don't have kids!

People are going to have to get over this idea that they deserve a break because they have kids.

Cuts are going to be by force because, as evinced on the Health in Pregnancy Grant thread, otherwise people just take the piss.

Don't you just love Xenia's logic? Rich = hard work/high IQ. Poor = not working hard enough and/or low IQ. Black/White.

'They make prisoners work in the US and what has happenend is companies view it as free labour so the low paid jobs either vanish or pay even lower.'

Riven, you know that is not true with regards to prison labour. It really isn't.

They have a minimum wage in the US, too (prisoners exempted from this as obviously, they have limited living costs).

Where is the evidence prisoners working has affected the employment levels there by state?

In states where prisoners are compelled to work it is overwhelmingly to provide their own services in house, as of course, they represent a security risk, in order to decrease their expense to the taxpayer.

I did also say some clever peoople make foolish career choices where pay is bad and they and their children suffer for life. You can be clever, work and not make much but also be happy just as you can be happy in my position ( I am). As happiness is not related to income the fact you might have less coming because of cuts may not affect your happiness therefore does it really matter? It would do heaps of people good if they drank only tap water as I do etc etc or walking in the park and cooking at home rather than expensive eating out things.

(Yes, I meant IB not DLA and of course there are some people who could never work but lots could)
I am not so sure this or any other Government will get people working though. Every scheme ever tried has failed. Calling them in to pointless interviews where they have to indicate they are looking for work or pretend they are - they all fail. It would only - tur up here to work 6 hours a day litter picking and at the end of the week you will get your benefit check as long as you were on time every day that I could really see it working)

good post expat

we are the working poor, both work but have less disposable income than neighbours who don't work and are playing the system

I hope things do change for these people, it has to.

It's a good job this country has plenty of clever, but 'foolish' people prepared to go into teaching, nursing, policing etc... and have to live on lower incomes than some.

Not that their income is terrible but considering they seem to work long hours, shift work, have university educations and work with some of the hardest members of our society they deserve every penny.

"My dad said it best: if you want an easy life, don't have kids!"

Sorry, totally disagree with you and your dad. I think that's a very American, neo-liberal perspective TBH.
What if, tomorrow, everyone suddenly decided they wanted an easy life. Society would grind to a halt because society depends on kids, and each child born deserves a fair shot in life. If a rich country can provide that shot, then they should- by distributing their wealth towards children. The results in a safer society for everyone.
If children's parents are stuck in a poverty trap, (in cases where both parents work outside the home OR when one decides to take on the job of looking after the kids themselves) and realised they have no future i.e no stake in society I believe it can contribute to the crime rate of a country.

Also, its stupid saying kids of people who are unemployed don't deserve the same shot. With de-industrialization jobs have been out-sourced to developing countries like China. So whereas in the past a not-so-bright man could found work as a skilled labourer, that work doesn't exist anymore in our society.

I think there is a huge demand for skilled labour in the UK. We have probably tens of thousands of migrants from Eastern Europe that work here as plumbers, builders etc and still people moan about how you can't get decent labour. The problem is not that the jobs don't exist but that our education system doesn't train people for them, careers advisors don't push these sorts of jobs and some people don't want to do them.

So the government should subsidise everyone who has children, including people like lg36 who earn over £45K/annum and have one child, Sakura? Or just those who live in London?

Because that's what lg36 is on about, how hard it is because all she gets is child benefit whilst on over £45K/annum.

Now I'm a liberal, but how is that going to be possible now, for us, because I am British, too, and what we have now is a Tory/LibDem government and plenty of people who don't want to pay for everyone's 'fair shot'.

Or can't. Because they are already stretched to the max and looking at a VAT and NI hike.

Where do we draw the line?

Because no one is saying the children of the unemployed don't deserve a 'fair shot' or end the welfare system.

But cuts are going to be made by our government, and soon.

Cuts have to be made or no one's going to be getting much of anything, much less a 'fair shot'.

I think we do need to make sure that all children get a "fair shot" but the best way that we do this is to provide a good education for everyone. I think education and responsive social services (for those children in really dire need) are the best way to ensure that all kids get a fair go at life.

Crude financial redistribution doesn't solve the problems that many children face. As Riven points out the children of financially poor parents aren't necessarily disadvantaged. The children of parents who don't love them or can't/won't look after them are.

I didn?t say that my situation was dire and I realise that many are a lot worse off than me and my son, nor did I say that I should be entitled to benefits. However, the discussion originated around not feeling sorry for those who earn over 45k. Luckily I am in a position to earn this kind of salary but it?s not easy. It?s not fair that ALL families who earn this sort of money are grouped together and for others to assume they lead a charmed life, as this is simply not the case. I know people who don?t work (and never have done ? and not because they can?t) who have been provided with free housing, free childcare and in some cases even money to take their children on holiday (I kid you not!). So yes, sometimes I do consider whether the last 20 years really wasn?t worth my effort. However, I still get up at 5.30am/return home at 7.30pm, pay an extortionate amount of money for someone else to look after my child, safe in the knowledge that I am missing out on seeing him grow up. I never get a break and have no family to help out when my son or I get sick and if I?m up all night with him I still have to get myself to work otherwise I don?t get paid. So yes, if the government were willing to help me out to alleviate some of the stress I would take it in an instant ? not because I want to live off of the state for the rest of my life, but yes, certainly to help me out until I get back on my feet. There are too many people who do see living off of benefits as a way of life ? for their entire life. A benefits system based upon helping individuals to get back on their feet when their situation changes unexpectedly (e.g redundancy) would be much more beneficial to the state of this country than a benefits system which allows people to live off of the state for life. Anyway, back to the very first point I raised in my original post, please do not assume that everyone who earns 45k has an easy life and therefore should not be entitled to some sort of government help. There are some people out there who earn absolutely nothing who have a much better quality of life than I do.