In not having much sympathy with a couple on £45k plus per year having some benefits cut?

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There is loads of this on the news just now about how "middle income" families will be having some child tax credits cut and might be paying more tax. They news are showing what to me looks like comfortable off families having to do with a bit less. Is this really so bad? I know an income of £45-£50k per year might not be much in central London but will keep you in style in parts of the north, but how bad will it be? So people might have to change jobs/give up the second car/holiday at home instead of Spain every year? SO WHAT? There are plenty of us living on less than £25k a year who have had to cut back since having kids and take this as a fact of life.

I know MN is made up of mostly middle earners and I'll get pelters for this, but I don't really care. Anyone I know on a middle income can afford to give up some things _ its called life.

Haven't read all 22 pages but surely the majority of us will have to adjust our living standards when the tax rises and benefit cuts come in. The extent of the pain it will cause depends on individual circumstances. It is possible to struggle on £45K in an expensive area with a big mortgage on a tiny place, or live in relative comfort on £15K in a cheaper area if you own your home outright. Silly original post IMO.

Riven - apparently you have to ask for a 'wet' cappuccino. this means you don't end up paying three quid for a cup full of foam.

Salary is such a crude way of measuring wealth though. Disposable income comes into it (families may well have further expenses that don't show up on a balance sheet - supporting another member of the family for example - we had my brother living here for a while, which was another adult to pay for, and was happy to do it, or perhaps care home fees for an elderly parent). Council tax varies from area to area.

Other things need to be taken into account - for example, we have NO family backup here, so anytime we are both working (say an evening, or a weekend) we have to arrange childcare, and at those times it is pretty hard . I can not make enough money to cover nursery/childminder costs, so work from home, whilst looking after the children at the same time, but in my area, lots of work has to be out of the house at unsociable and irregular times. This is the career I chose, I know, but I'm just pointing out that just looking at 'money coming in' is not straightforward.

There is an interesting calucaltor on the IFS website here - we put our household income in (about 50k), and when you also input number of children (3, soon to be 4) and council tax (we live in a high taxing area, but not in a grand house iyswim) we are on the 42nd centile, which did surprise me, but might prove the lie to the 'cappuccino lifestyle' comments on this thread.

Should Dad give up his job to avoid childcare costs and be a SAH parent considering the reality of how many men see that. The implications on their marriage and his self-esteem etc?

I Know This Is On Page 12 But Wanted To Comment

My husband gave up his job so i could go back out to work and avoid child care costs. He was a very good Stay at home dad too. Sometimes its just not feesable for both parents to be working.

...I'm too embarrassed to ask for a 'wet' cappucino!

my husband and I earn £51k betwen us. It actually comes out after deductions at about £35k. Our mortgage is about £1500 a month, I spend about £80 a week at the supermarket, our bills are about £600 a month which works out at about £30k, so we have £5k left a year to spend on car tax / insurance / house insurance / clothes / holidays, it soon starts to add up - we arent really that better off thas someone on £25k or less, we probably have a slightly bigger house but ours is only a standard 4 bed, 1 bath its not a mansion or anything. but Im willing to bet that with ctc etc we are both on pretty similar money we were getting £60 a month ctc as i had a kid under one but he just had his birthday so thats gone now - i dont really mind giving it up as we probably dont need it but it was nice to have it extra so YANBU if thats what you feel but we aint that different so would you like it if they cut yours?

we have an income of almost exactly £45k, as 2 front-line public sector workers.

Most of my income is taken in childcare costs, and tax credits plus nursery vouchers makes my working viable. I am not sure whether it will be cost effective for me to continue working without tax credits.

With tough times ahead I am happy to take a hit, as long as the higher earners are taking theirs too. Problem is I see no evidence that this will happen.

"our luxuries keep other people in work"

So do we need more people to become super-rich so that they can employ butlers and chauffeurs?

Lilybolero that link is fascinating, according to it we are in the top 5% and yet we have one of the lowest incomes from our friends. Hepl you get some much needed perspective.

Lenin - hot and wet? pmsl

Tis never enough. I've never earned little enough to be given a tax credit.

Many many years ago you used to get a tax allowance (before my time) for each child. I think child benefit replaced that paid then to the mother usually. You used also to covenant (promise) mnoey to adult children and then it was tax free but I'm in favour of abolishing all those complications, reliefs etc and having a very simple tax system.

As for who should bear the pain Governments decide that based on many factors. Apparently increasing the single person allowance from £6k if I've remembered rightly to £10k would lose us £6bn in tax, so clearly a huge amount of tax is obtained on income at that level by sheer weight of numbers.

I buy my value Tesco chickens - perhaps the Waitrose organic money wasters of mumsnet should enrol on the Xenia how to save money and do good too - I make a good case for my choice of battery value egggs and the only thing I drink is tap water. In fact I wonder if there is another mumsnet poster even those on benefits on extreme poverty who spends as little on drinks as I do?

Those of us with parents who had to cope with food rationing in the 1950s or who came here from abroad with very little are probably well placed for the new tough regime. Another tip...wear clothes until they wear out . I would never throw away knickers even if they had a few holes in.

Mind you I always found the easiest way to deal with all this is just get out there and earn a lot more, increase your working hours, take on a second job etc etc. It's much more fun than scrimping.

As for who is rich, well the average wage is about £20k in the UK but full time work on the minimum wage is more like £13k and plenty of people can't even get full time work.

Salary is such a crude way of measuring wealth though.

What are governments supposed to use though? I mean, they have to use some cut off. And if you get into the whole 'well, I have less because I have a mortgage in the SE' or 'I don't take home as much because my partner pays maintenance on his children from another relationship' then you open the system up to a host of unfairness.

Am not on benefits but probably spend more on drinks than Xenia because if I couldn't have real coffee from a coffeemaker in the morning My World As I Know It would come to an end.

Or cups of Tetleys throughout the day and the occassional ginseng, Celestial Seasonings Sleeptime or Tension Tamer herbal stuff.

Every now and again, I'll punt for some of those smoothies in a carton, too.

Sorry, I missed quotation marks again:
'Salary is such a crude way of measuring wealth though.'

Thanks for the tip about a wet cappucino, too.

I have no qualms about saying something others consider embarrassing if it means not getting ripped off.

Martha, you commented that "With tough times ahead I am happy to take a hit, as long as the higher earners are taking theirs too. Problem is I see no evidence that this will happen."

My own tax bill is up £10k this year with the impact of losing personal allowances and the new higher rate. In addition, the deficit in my pension scheme through the stealth taxes is massive and needs addressing (no final salary pension scheme here).

To say that there is no evidence that higher earners are being hit is simply not accurate. We've been hit hard and hit first and probably will be hit again.

"I always found the easiest way to deal with all this is just get out there and earn a lot more, increase your working hours, take on a second job etc etc. It's much more fun than scrimping."

I completely agree with your work ethic Xenia, but there is very little in the way of job vacancies where I live. If I wanted a second job I would be hard pushed to find one. Hopefully that will change but if people do stop buying non essentials such as cappucinos, some of these small businesses such as cafes will go under rather than taking on extra staff.

Very true Quattro. Higher earners are taking a hit.

The other point that someone early in the thread made is that high earners are often also entrepreneurial and create jobs, as well as paying high amounts of tax whilst not using services (I mean using private healthcare rather than NHS, private schooling for their children rather than state schooling). If they feel that the system is taking a disporportionate amount from them, they can move their businesses and the tax revenue they generate abroad. Then the UK is worse off.

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