Non English kids

[fyimate]

Am I wrong in getting annoyed at non English parents for NOT teaching their kids English (even though they -the parent- can speak it)?
I've seen my DD confused by other kids because they dont speak English when playing with her, and then I hear the parent speaking another language to the child even though they (the parent) can speak English.
Why dont they teach their kids English?
It annoys me more because of the amount of money taxpayers have to fork out in translators which appears to be avoidable?

I almost took my PGCE in primary with an English as an Additional Language specialism. There are places where a high proportion of children are not English speaking at home but very rarely to do you find communities so entirely isolated that the children speak/understand no English at all. Children learn very quickly. They also forget very quickly but slightly that's beside the point.

Teachers in areas with a high percentage of EAL stduents usually have a lot of experience, especially in the EYFS, of dealing with 'non-English speaking' children and have lots of strategies which actually also benefit the rest of the class because they don't only rely on verbal communication. It's worth remembering that only a small proportion of communcation is actually the words we say and that when children start school they're not thrown straight into abstract concepts which 'need' language. The first 6 weeks or so are often spent learning about 'being at school' and that is plenty of time for a child to pick up the language. The problem does come later when what is done at school isn't reinforced at home because of the language difference (literacy etc) but those are cases where the parents themselves don't speak English and often have different attitudes towards school and education.

Further up the educational chain it may be difficult if you have someone with non-existent English thrown into a classroom but by that time the teacher will usually be able to spare some time to concentrate on that one pupil for a while, or outsource the support. IMO the biggest problems are Reception/Y1 where you have large numbers of children with no/poor English before coming to school but the play-based curriculum is very conduicive to langauge learning, so it's not a huge problem, and teachers work with what they can do and build on that.

And I never struggled in a Welsh medium school despite having virtually no Welsh to start. I didn't have a problem when we moved back to England either because for the first few years you learn very little that can't be applied from one language to another with a little thought. A lot of things were exactly the same, just not in Welsh any more, and I had to read English at school instead of only doing English at home.

I agree it is mindless and stupid to say this is BNP.

I strongly feel that if someone moves to another country they must learn the language.
I think it should be a condition of entry

"I strongly feel that if someone moves to another country they must learn the language."

It does not follow that they must use this as the language in which they speak to their children, does it? I have learnt English to such an extent that I am now teaching at the English dept of a Russell Group university. But I still mainly speak to my children in my home language; in fact, I have been criticised by experts for not using my language all the time.

"I think it should be a condition of entry"

And the asylum seekers should just tell their governments that they will have to hold off torturing them or trying to kill them until their foreign languages are sufficiently advanced. Quite so.

If I moved to another country I would learn the language and expect my children to do the same.
If I was to make a new country my home I would want to communicate with people there without expecting them to learn English.

I hate it when you are abroad on holiday and you get some English dimwit (it is always the English) moaning that the people do not speak English, why the hell should they??

I am appalled at this post.

As you may tell from my writing in English, I do speak it and so does my little son. His dad talks to him in English, I talk to him only in my own language as to not confuse him. In playgrounds I sometimes do a little translation on the spot so the other child knows what I'm saying, but surely it should be my bloody business what language I use to my own kid.

For those that say English should be a condition of entry, do you expect the same from the english speaking people living abroad?

This has made so sad, it's so upsetting to hear one shouldn't teach their own language to their child. I think this is the end of the road for me and mumsnet.

Runaway, I think you missed my point about asylum seekers. Many immigrants have had to leave their countries very quickly, without the luxury of preliminary English lessons. Some are traumatised, virtually all are without money, if they are going to learn the language it won't happen instantly.

And you also seemed to miss my point that it is quite possibly to learn English as an immigrant (as Nelly and I have done) and still speak to our children in our own language: indeed, this is in line with all the latest and best advice.

My children speak perfect English (dd is in top set). They just don't necessarily speak it with me.

OP - you are being totally and utterly unreasonable. Please inform yourself about bilingualism before posting such drivel.

I see the point is being misinterpreted again

MrFibble obviously hasnt read through the posts otherwise he would have seen what I have said since posting.

Even I find it annoying to see how the English take over other countries whilst on holiday (or not) and refuse to learn the basics rather then just bellowing "Oi wait-er!" in a most commonly English way :P

So to repeat myself, bilingualism = good
Going to a foriegn country and not learn at least the basics = bad

Right? Or am I about to be attacked by another angry mob?

Pretty much.

To expand on bilingualism = good

Speaking your native tongue to your child = good, even in public where there are people who do not understand you to encourage consistency.

And on the asylum seekers/immigration point what about people who come to learn the language. Or do you mean it should be a condition for permanent settlement, which it sort of is....

"Its not unreasonable to expect that parents make some effort to equip their kids with English skills before they start school"

Again:

Living in the UK, kids with other mother tongues are immersed in English. They hear English everywhere, they play with English kids at playgroup and playgrounds. Even if they don't actually speak it before preschool, they soon come out with English sentences.

This is at no cost to UK taxpayer, since they don't get any special treatment at school. So why is it a problem for you?

""So to repeat myself, bilingualism = good""

I so agree with you but have to tell you that the only way to achieve that bilinguisme IS to actually only talk to your children in your own mother tongue. Believe me I speak from experience:

DD1 (now 11) I used to only speak French with her before she started pre school (not because I could not speak English burt because I wanted her to be able to talk to her non English aspeaking family as well), she still has a reasonable use of the language and is definitely not behind in school for English(litteracy things).

Ds2 (now 9) was talked to both in French and English because by the time he was born DD1 was comming back from school speaking more and more English, which I did in turn, and his French is not too good

DS2 and DD4 (6 and 3) pretty much do not speak French at all because I was not stong enough to keep it up. This is probably the thing I regret the most in my life and am the most ashamed of.

Please, foreign parents in the UK, be stronger than me and carry on speaking your own language to your Dcs! Even if a few people get annoyed because they cannot understand what you are telling to your Dcs.

I keep trying to tell my DP to talk to our DD in Portuguese but he doesnt. He doesnt know what to say and she reacts oddly toward him when he does speak to her in Portuguese because she has no idea what he's saying!

He has some kids from a previous W and they don't speak Portuguese anymore, but can understand it when spoken, all because their mother brought them back to England and she never learnt Portuguese in all the years they lived there.

I wish I'd kept up with my opportunity to learn Polish when I was younger but never did.

So I guess I'll get on my DP's back about speaking Portuguese to my DD then!

I live in Spain, am a translator and speak fluent Spanish, but I speak to my dd only in my native language, English.

To reiterate what others said, it's important that I speak to my dd in English all the time, because she has Spanish all around her, and will be immersed in it every day when she goes to nursery school.

I used to speak Spanish a bit to dd in the park in front of others, but now I think I'll stop, because I don't want to confuse dd, and if others get offended I don't give a stuff

That said, most people are very positive about it in the park, and like to join in and get their dd to show off the English they know. It's sweet. Sorry to be cynical, but I bet they wouldn't be so friendly if we were Moroccan and speaking Berber or Arabic.

I had people give me very pointed dirty looks in my home town for speaking Spanish near them to my ex. They assumed I was an immigrant and were disapproving of me speaking a different language in their precious presence, and probably of me being there in the town at all. It's sad, but I just see it as small-mindedness, ignorance and fear (are they saying something about me?)

I agree with Cory, many immigrants do not have the same advantages in terms of learning English before they get to the UK as say an ex-pat who has ready access to language classes here. I'm sure most learn the language quickly enough through LIVING in the UK.

gorionine its not too late, you know.

You should start talking to them in French again - the younger ones especially will pick it up, or at least have a good understanding of it.

I was not consistant in speaking English to my DCs aged 12 and 11 (we are in Japan) but do try as much as possible, and they understand everything I say, and have started answering me more recently in English...especially as DD has started learning it formally at school.

I could understand you saying you regret it etc. if they were all grown up but they are all still young children. Go for it!

fyimate - So let me get this straight:

You are annoyed to hear other parents speak their language to their kids at the playground BUT want your exP to speak Portuguese to YOUR kid.

Could it be that you are slightly envious of the parents with their bilingual children in the park speaking another language with such ease?

'I don't really feel it's school's responsibility to teach children a language from scratch. I think the parents should make sure their child has a basic understanding of the language before school.'

I'd like the native speakers to start doing this, so that I had articulate, socialised and motivated children who could articulate, communicate in sentences and discuss at an appropriate level.
But it's been 25 years and I'm still waiting.

But today people send children to school in nappies and without the ability to tie their own shoe laces...

A teacher is not a nanny! They are not there to babysit your child. It is the parents job to start their child at school with the basic ability to do things for themselves and that includes a good command of the language you are asking them to be taught in.

Any children actually living in the UK are bound to have a basic command of English by the time they start school although their parents do not speak it to them, because they are surrounded by English every day.

My tutor last year told a really sad story about retaining your home language. She was raised to speak only English although her parents first language was something else. Her parents returned to their home country and the tutor remained here, married, raising her family. Recently, her mum has slipped into ill health and cannot communicate in English anymore just her first language. My tutor says she cannot speak with her own mother anymore . Children pick up a second language very quickly once in school.

Fyimate, as us individuals that make up your "angry mob" keep saying, why do you presume that when parents speak to their children in their own language (only way to get bilingual dc) that they can't teach their children English or that dc go to school not knowing basics.
Gorinine, I understand fully how you feel yet Tante Rose is right, its not too late. My dd1(14) is fluent in German and English, ds(9) also but dd2 (6) answers always in German. It breaks my heart that I can't get her to speak English but console myself with the thought that at least she understands the language.
By the way, Strictly Torylots of English arriving here and sending their children to school without a good command of the German language (we did it and now my dd, 15, has the best German grade in her Gymnasium year) so nothing to worry about there!

YABU

I have a friend who grew up with a German Mother and A Spanish Father in Spain. Her Mother spoke to her in German from Birth and she learnt Spanish through her Father and at school and from just living in Spain.

She has a great advantage I think in being bilingual. No, she's trilingual as she also speaks English.

She in turn spoke German to her son from Birth who picked up Spanish from his Father and English from living in an English speaking country and going to an English speaking school. He is 2 1/2!!

I am 35 and speak a little French, German, Spanish and Italian, but am I fluent in any of them? No. I would love to be but I started learning languages at too late a date in my life.

Children are sponges. They pick up languages easily especially if they are immersed in that language.

You should be envious of these children as I am when I meet bilingual children as that could never happen for my DD as both myself and my DH are English speakers.

But I actually think you are having a laugh and trying to get a rise from others. I cannot believe One would think like this.

I do agree however that when in Rome and all that. If you choose to move to a country with a different mother tongue you should endeavour to learn the language.

"It is the parents job to start their child at school with the basic ability to do things for themselves and that includes a good command of the language you are asking them to be taught in."

How old is this hypothetical child? I'm curious, because it sounds like you think something important will be taught in that "school".

For example, are we allowed to send 3 year olds to preschool without a formal education in the language of the host country? Given that no "good command of the language" is needed for them to follow classes at that level, since nothing is really going to be "taught" except a bit of socialization, names of the seasons, etc.

Being multilingual is great - I agree with it where it can happen but cote when you say that kids are immersed in enlgish in their day to day lives - some really aren't until the point they start school.

Possibly the parents don't speak enlgish but I know people both from europe and further afield that have the attitude that it's the teachers job to teach their child enlgish and nothing to do with them.

My ds has access to a few languages at home but if he hears something in a language that he doesn't know he makes an (overly) huge point of asking why are they speaking that.