to think that Plato was full of shit?

[ooojimaflip]

The idea of Paltonic Forms as he formulated it - that they are the base of reality - is patent nonsense. In the informal sense that is is often used it just means 'idealised abstract'. I don't like his semi-fascist political ideology either. Some of his epistomology is not bad though.

Well, at least he was thinking, contrary to some.....

In this day and age, thinking seem to be underestimated.

But I would not want his city state, and I would not want to live in ancient Sparta either.

Give me Aristotle's syllogisms anyday...

cartesian doubt - is the doubt that anything exists.

Descartes solves this through the 'cogito' ie 'i think therefore i am'
he then goes on to 'prove' that not only the 'I' exists, but certain 'clear and distinct ideas' (ie God) and he then posits that probably od wouldn't want us all to be deceived by demons, so relity, rpobably, is real..

there are many problems with the cogito, such as that pointted out that 'think therefore I am' does not follow'i think..therefore there is thought' is all that is actually proved.

in answer to he OP - the art of being a great Philosopher is essentially to stand up tall, an write the most coherently, boldly wrong piece of thought you can.

recent philsophers have been less willing to be wrong, which is why none of them qualify as greats.

In plato's specific case, the mouthpiece of his books, Socrates, is a really great thinker 'wise is he who knows he knows not' etc... who knows whether Platowas much cop by himself? One suspects so, and that he uses his 'Socrates' to put forth ideas that are really his.

oh yes and Artistotle was indeed a bugger for the bottle.

I think we really need to see the whole construct of AIBU through the prism of an Hegelian dialectic, actually.

But if I am faced with metaphysical ramblings or empirical research I shall always be drawn to the empirically researched facts - I like things and thoughts to be neat and in straight lines.

I guess it is because I am a Capricorn I don't believe in mumbo-jumbo

Empirical reasearch ftw.

YANBU. Not at all. Aristotle on the other hand was a much more interesting sort of chap and I do rather like the Epicureans.

Ooh Epicure - he's my man.

so long as we can all agree we hate Kant for being a) impenetrable b) smug c) wrong then thats ok. On the plus side of Plato's republic, anyone who got their political views from the Sun or the Mail would have been denied a vote which may have an upside?
(ducks to avoid the flamethrower)

No we like Kant, 'cause of the puns you can make with his name.

The cave was where the men were separated at birth from their parents and chained to a wall in a cave where they could only see shadows of a boat or shadows of the fire so did these items exist? One man breaks free and tries to convince the others of their existence and I think they kill him.

Something cheerful along those lines anyway.

I think their conscience should be the guardian of the guardians these days - if they have one that is

we can all agree we hate Kant for being a) impenetrable b) smug c) wrong

his work is pretty dense, n'est pas? I rather liked certain aspects of his theory. though his moral framework all falls down a bit when you relise he's used he old crutch of the almighty as everybodys reason to abide by his notion of 'Duty'.

His metaphysics were..interesting. i found it very amusing when he said 'we can't conceive of infinity' and i thought - 'if i say I am conceiving of it now, how can he disprove me?' ...that was a mere hour of debate over about a half-page of text. Paper was more expensive in his time.

What i like is his love of reason, his strong belief that everything could be worked out if people were just rational enough. He still managaes to be much less boring than Hegel.

I heart Aristotle - Socrates is Whiter than Plato begins to be White. Cannot be beat for the head-bending stuff.

Plato, for example...

And Eggy, 'less boring than Hegel is setting the bar extremely low, surely. I mean, really, the whole dialectic theory couldn't have been fucking summarised?

I always liked the bit about Socrates [I think it was he] "drawing out" of the slave boy Pythagorean theory which was innate in him all along. I have tried this with my dog and then DS aged 3 but no luck as of yet ....

ah yes, he really is showing Meno up as being an utter twonk isn't he? And really enjoying doing it...I can imagine the smile on the beardy-weirdy face now as he makes the answer beyond obvious so that the (rather dim) slave boy can only give the correct answer...
and then concluding it is because we have innate knowledge (rather than because there are 'eternal truths' in maths that can be recognised at first sight without prior knowledge, bcause..to understand theterms, is to have the answer..)

I think possibly my dog lacks the innate knowledge, and DD..isn't old enough to have it drawn out of her yet....

Rather politically dangerous for him too, Meno was a powerful man. it really isn't suprising the state ended up trying him on trumped charges...he made alot of enemies by this kind of argument.

Less boring then Hegel? Try Weber - oh my dear god - you have to physically uncross your eyes at five minute intervals.

Anyway if Aristotle and Plato had a fight who would you put your money on? Remember that Aristotle might be a bit pissed and lairy after a long lunch and will be largeing it.

plato was a wrestler - in fact Plato was his stagename. (Can't remember what his real one was) so I'd have to bet on him really.

also, the cave involved people who waved puppets and it was the puppets that cast the shadows and me and my 6th formers could never decide, if the shadows represent "our world" are the forms the puppets or the people waving them or what. The one who escapes is meant to be socrates -hence the killing of him for trying to help them see the truth.

anyone else a fan of Augustine, got to love that "God give me chastity - bit not yet" line!?

, 'less boring than Hegel is setting the bar extremely low, surely. I mean, really, the whole dialectic theory couldn't have been fucking summarised?

dunno mate. I only read select paragraphs, and the intro to the penguin edition (so i suppose, yes , it can be sumarised v. succesfully!). Hegel so dull have deliberately avoided having much to do with him.

I am a Nietzche fan though, which shows I like my Philosophers very much on the exicitng, witty, and weird end, rather than dry categorisers and systematisers...

although i have to hand it to N himself - he read all that tripe before criticising it.

YANBU.
Baffles me how he could totally make up something like the Platonic Ideal without a shred of evidence and that it still gets discussed millenia later.

Does anyone want to discuss shoes and kittens now?

Only ideal shoes

does the essence of these shoes precede their existence?

If a shoe falls in the forest...
No hang on that's not right.