To think labour are crap

[Reallytired]

The national insurance hike is unfair on low income working families and damages businesses.

I do not want hand outs, I just want to keep what I earn. Child tax credits are a complex system and its terrifying claiming them. If DH gets a job then will they claim them back all at once.

oojimaflip - but you do pay tax on a private pension, Gordon Brown saw to that when he did his pension tax grab as Chancellor. And we all pay NI on our salaries, which is tax by any other name but doesn't count for tax relief purposes.

Ali - you don't pay NI when the pension pays out. So you still pay each bit only once. I agree that pretending NI isn't just tax is stupid though.

The pension tax grab is a bit of a seperate issue I think.

RE the pensions/bus pass thing.

I suspect the rational is it's cheaper to give it to all pensioners than means test it in the way some posters are suggesting?

Imagine all the extra civil servants you would need to implement that policy....

Sorry, I mean 'rationale', not 'rational'.

No I agree you only pay the NI once, but you pay more NI on your salary than you 'save' on your pension IYSWIM.

Janos - yes I believe that is the thinking. Same as child benefit.

Depends what sort of pension yu have surely (if you pay tax twice)? If the money is taken out into a fund before tax, the sure, no tax paymant, but if a private pension, then the money you are paying it out of will have been taxed.

My poor grandmother has to pay tax on hers, she doesn't get a huge pension either. Not sure what it is, but she sure isn't wealthy!!

US? I don't have a pension (not earning, much, not claiming benefits)... DH's (pension) is so poor that it will barely feed us when he retires.

At what point (ie how much do you have to be earning) for national insurance to kick in?

The Greeks get to keep what they earn (no PAYE system!) and look at what is going on there at the moment!

The institute of fiscal studies reported a while ago that the lowest earners claiming WFTC and CTC actually end up with 50% more money than they actually earn. So all this bullshit about the richest in the country paying the least amount of tax and the poorest the most is more bullshit aimed at getting low earners to hate people who have worked their balls off to get where they are.

And Riven - please stop wheeling out facts about disability living allowance and free bus passes etc - this debate is not aimed at stopping anything for carers or the disabled it is about the able bodied who fail to work or families that earn a good wage that still get benefits from the government.

I'd rather not have a health service to be honest. If everyone paid insurance the healthcare would be better and the country would be better off. Health and social care take up a vast amount of cash and people have very little respect for the Nhs.

It's unsustainable and as a country we cannot afford it.

I'd rather not have a health service to be honest. If everyone paid insurance the healthcare would be better and the country would be better off. Health and social care take up a vast amount of cash and people have very little respect for the Nhs.

It's unsustainable and as a country we cannot afford it.

I have enormous respect for the NHS.

The alternative, including moving towards a US style health system, would be a massive step backwards as a civilised country.

Alouiseg - all developed countries have some form of state health care. Ours is far from the worst. It's also far from the best, and there are significant issues about how we fund and whom we chose to treat that need to be addressed.

I think the provision of some form of universal healthcare is fundamental to a civilised society. I don't want to live in one where leaving people to die because of poverty is acceptable, rather than tolerated as it is now.

Americas is worse though - costs more for the individual and the state and has poorer outcomes. It's only virtue is the enrichment of insurance companies.

Other Eurpoean models tend to involve compulsory insurance. I don't really see this as any different to taxation - provision is just outsourced.

Don't agree that people have little respect for the NHS. Where does that come from?

"oojimaflip - but you do pay tax on a private pension"

You certainly do. In fact one problem Governments have is that those that don't bother to save then get their pension income made up to something like £200 a week for a couple I think. If they saved hard all their life then they don't get made up to that basic income because they have it from savings so the incentive to save was removed.

Whichever Government gets in is going to have to make massive changes to state sector pensions though, there's no question about that. The private sector who often dont' have their own pensions are paying out huge sums in tax for state pensions and indeed MPs' pensions. The gravy train is going to stop whoever gets in ebcause we cannot afford it. We are not too beyond Greece on some indicators. if the Tories get in though it will all be managed better.

I agree with Xenia about the incentive issue.

I think many people in this country are sick to death of being fucked over - led to believe that saving, working hard, supporting yourself and your dependents rather than expecting 'the state' to provide, will be rewarded. And then realising that you may be no worse off if you'd squandered all your money.

I also think too many people talk about 'the state' in a very detached way, as if 'government money' comes from some bottomless purse which has nothing to do with any of us. Er.. nope, we are the state.

Not convinced the Tories will be any better though

Wherein lies the problem...... We know they are inept and criminally negligent when it comes to the public purse yet there is not a jot of difference between them!

Someone needs to save team GB and all who sail in her!