to think that these men were extraordinarily rude..?

[legallyblond]

Has such a horrid journey in to work today... first, I got on and there were no seats. Not the end of the world. I am nearly 19 weeks pregnant and do definately have a bump, but I was wearing a loose top and, to be fair, people can't always tell if someone is fat or pregnant... I thought I would be ok standing.

But then the line had severe delays and was stop/start/stop/start/jolt/jolt/ etc and boiling hot for ages and ages. After about half an hour of going nowhere fast, I literally thought I was about to pass out, so I asked the two men next to me, who were sitting in the "priority" seats, if I could possibly sit down as I felt ill (and I am also fairly clearly pregnant of course, but I didn't actually say that). THEY SAID NO!!! They both just grunted and shook their heads! I was literally swaying by this time, but thankfully, a woman form the other end of the carriage noticed and gave me her seat... I still feel a bit sick

AIBU to think that these men really should have given up their seats, if not immediately, then certainly when I said I felt ill?

But perhaps they had a reason to sit there?

I didn't suggest she should have asked for a reason LittleMrsHappy - merely that if the OP had stated she was pregnant and feeling unwell (which I think she should have done if it wasn't very obvious that she was pregnant, and it seems it wasn't) then it would have been courteous for the seated men refusing to give up the priority seat to have given a reason. Not an explanation - just a reason. A simple 'I am disabled, I need the priority seat' would be enough.

YANBU at all. Its not always obvious when a pregnant woman needs a seat, but I would never question someone who asked to sit in my seat for any reason, I would just assume they really needed it and get straight up! You should've puked on their heads.

People can be absolute twats on the train in the morning though. I was crushed into the corner of a packed carriage the other morning, some knob-end tried to barge onto the carriage at the other end, yelled for everyone to move down, we all shouted back that there was NO ROOM, and he was all like 'well it's between YOU getting squashed up or ME missing the train' and barged straight on. Fucker.

Ok, so imagine you're sitting in one of those seats and have a non-obvious disability or are non-obviously pg. A pg lady asks you to move. Do you:

A Grunt and shake your head, like the callous oaf you are.

B Address the rest of the carriage and explain that there's another pg lady here who also needs a seat, can any kind person help here?

IME approach B is highly successful. It's almost always another woman who will give up her seat, though, or a foreign-born man. British men are not impressive on this.

You have suggested it tho, but not directly, you are expecting the sitting people, give a reason why they are sitting in the priority seat, and if they dont give a reason, you are then making the assumption, that they are being UR and rude. (all hypothetical and speculation)

In my experience and in family life, that one expectation of a expectation/question, then leads to more expectation/questions.

A simple NO, cuts out any of those unwanted questioning and is non negotiable.

If the men were not disabled in anyway,shape or form, then of course they were being UR and rude. But in this case we simply dont know.

But it is a grey area, and just because the eye does not see something, does not necessarily mean they also dont have a right to sit on those seats.

Yes, I am saying that it would be courteous for the sitting people to give a reason why they are in the priority seat. That's correct. I do think that. It is my opinion. It seems to me highly unlikely that TWO people both in the same carriage on the same tube on the same day at the same moment would both have invisible disabilities so severe that they would refuse to give up their seat for someone who has specifically asked for it. So I do make an assumption that it is more likely than not that at least one of them (if not both) was being rude and unreasonable.
Of course it is possible that both of them were in need of the seats. But that is not the most likely scenario. A non-negotiable 'No' is just an unpleasant way to go about life IMO. It comes across as rude, it gets people upset and it seems it would just be nicer and easier for people to be a bit more polite about it. I have never ever seen anyone ask a person to move so that they could sit down (having lived for a number of years in London myself) so I don't imagine it happens that often that the two men in question were sick and tired of explaining themselves etc. Of course they aren't OBLIGED to explain. It just would be nice if they did, so that people like the OP don't end up feeling as though the world doesn't give a shit. That's all I'm saying.

me too emsyj. On the balance of probabilities, I' say these men were selfish arses

OP - I dont think its a new development unfortunatly. Pretty much exactly the same happened to me when I was pregnant and travelling on the tube 20 years ago.The man who refused was middle aged suited city type. I wish I had made a fuss, but I was so gobsmacked at the refusal.

I also had another situation when a stranger was absolutely lovely and really helped me out (yes, a woman).

Hope your trip home is better...

But LittleMissHappy, I find your statement:

'[being] pregnant does not make you less unable to stand either.'

VU.

Perhaps that was true for you, and others you know.

It was certainly not true for me, and for many people I know.

You're accusing the Op of making assumptions without enough information, but you are doing that too.

I - and many others - find pregnancy literally disabling, and it makes me a bit despairing when even women who have been pregnant themselves take the 'well I could run marathons and have bendy sex when I was nineteen weeks, so why one earth can't everyone else' attitude.

I know we are only talking about standing on the tube, but it's very hot down there, and you get thrown around every time the train stops/starts.

I live in London, and there are a very high proportion of rude people.

Therefore it is reasonable to assume they were being rude.

Well, I'm 27 weeks pregnant and travel by train EVERY day into London. My bump is VERY noticeable and recognisable as a pregnancy rather than fat - I know this because people I don't know in shops, sales assistants etc comment on a regular basis and have done for quite a few weeks now. I've been offered a seat 3 times in total. Twice by women. Once by a man who was encouraged to offer up his seat by another woman.

OP I completely sympathise with you and don't think you were being unreasonable at all. Those men were rude and if they really felt unable to give up their seats they could have at least helped you ask someone else instead - as umf suggested.

If your train is anything like the trains I get on, the swaying and jerking of the carriage can really through you off balance and male me feel quite sick as well. In fact, I ended up having a bit of a panic attack earlier this week when I was stood on the train in severe discomfort with my pelvis, struggling to stay balanced with the swaying of the train and getting hotter by the minute.

Littlemisshappy have you ever commuted by train into London at rush hour while pregnant out of interest?

well put emsyj

[waves] to Booboobedoo and agrees with her. London tube almost unbearable for pg women.

Well its all individual circumstances, she didn't say she could not stand, she said she felt sick! so I based my opinion on what the OP had written.

As I said previously is all speculation.

Lean over them all white and sweating. In a very loud stage whisper say.."Excuse me, I'm pregnant and I'm about to throw up" Then go a bit goggle eyed and sway a bit. Worked for me every time

Yes 8.5months pregnant and travel by train, had SPD and a broken wrist, had to stand the whole duration and no seats were available, still did not expect anybody to get off their seat, and if they were seated, I believed the had a reason to sit their.

That's irrelevant also, as its not the point I am arguing with.

We shouldn't ask somebody or even expect somebody to state their reason for sitting their, as its also rude and opens up alot of probabilities.

Just because the eye does not see a noticeable disability, we should not except they are fit and healthy, just because we need a chair, their need for that chair, may be higher than ours, and at the end of the day the OP got a seat, and I dont think the men were being UR, as we simply dont know their circumstances.

We are speculation, that they were simply rude and arses and twats et... we simply dont know of that is true!

Fair enough LittleMissHappy. I just bridle a bit at the 'pregnancy is not an illness' attitude.

A parasite is living inside you leaching away all your energy.

Luckily babies are cuter than tapeworms.

i'd have thrown up over them

Not unreasonable at all! If I had some sort of invisible disability, and a lady asked for my seat because she felt sick, I'd say very politely 'no I'm really sorry I do need to sit down'. See, no explanation needed, but I imagine op wouldn't have felt so pissed off.
However I really do think that most people who don't offer seats to pregnant women aren't aresholes. I think the majority are genuinely worried about getting it wrong and offending someone. We do quite often feel much more obviously pregnant than we truly look. And women are generally better at spotting a pg women, hence why they tend to offer more seats. I was walking down the st last month with dp, and we saw a friend we haven't seen in years. She was v v v obviously about 8 months pg, and my dp said to me 'bloody ell, she's put a bit on hasn't she'. I rest my point!
Plus, my old boss really did Inexplicably look about 6 months pg all the time. If someone had offered her a seat on the train, she would have hit them!
In short, if ur pg and want to sit down, u have every right to ask, and expect to get, a seat. But don't say nothing and hope people will notice, cause they probly haven't given u a second glance

Well I guess you're blessed with an eternally optimistic attitude and an unshakable faith in humanity LittleMrsHappy. Lucky you. I admire your positivity and faith in fellow commuters.

Commuting for 10 years on sweaty trains with rude people who push and shove and stand on my feet and elbow me in the stomach and insist on reading their large newspapers with their knees spread so wide I have to sit/stand in unnatural positions has eroded all the faith I have in my fellow commuter (especially male ones). IME most are rude and inconsiderate.

Like boo I also bristle at the 'pregnancy is not an illness" mantra. No it's not an illness but you're not exactly as physically capable at 6/7/8/9 months pregnant than you were pre-pregnancy.

As women why do we insist that we can do it all, have it all live the dream and be superwoman? Yes we are amazing, but sometimes, some of us need a seat. If only to recharge ourselves before our next heroic effort.

On a related note, I personally love the 'Baby On Board' badges that TFL give out - you can then be certain that you're offering a seat to a pregnant person, not offending an overweight one!

I must look pregnant as two strangers have asked me when I'm due in the last couple of days - the ticket man at the train station and an attendee at a seminar I went to yesterday. But still no let-up on the tube sadly! People were still really annoyed with me for being slow up and down the stairs whilst carrying my wheelie case, and nobody offered me a seat (not even the men studiously reading their papers and pretending not to see me whilst sitting in the priority seats )

bouncing - yes middle aged men with newspapers spread wide .... I always muse to myself : are their balls so big that they simply cannot put their legs together ...

oh yes jamie, they must be incredibly well endowed. Their wives/partners/lovers must be sooooo proud.

OP yanbu
I think it would have been better to say you are pregnant though not just that you feel ill, and to point out the seats are priority seat for pregnant, disabled etc as they may not know? but some people are just so rude and selfish not to move anyway, although it sounds like they were not aware you're pregnant.
I found people used to give me seat on the bus/tube quite a bit but then I didn't have to travel in the reallyy busy times luckily, so then you are more noticeable whereas if it is proper packed out noone would be able to see your bump or notice anything? People should let you have the seat if you ask though, its so rude not to. I don't think its really likely that they have both got an invisible disability as some people are saying!

I think these guys were rude. No need to say "No" without a "sorry" or something to make it more polite. I dont live in london but occassionally have work meetings there. Last time i went, a couple of weeks ago when i was 6 months pregnant and very obvious (i'm petite with a large bump - people I meet think i'm about to pop so there is very little chance that people cant tell i'm pregnant). In rush hour not a single person offered their seat to me - i didnt want to ask as i felt too shy and awkward doing so, even though i was desperate to sit down. I saw people look at my stomach and then look away. Friends who have suffered the daily commute when pregnant in london have told me stories of being shouted at when asking for a seat, so that kind of puts me off!
Whatever happened for a little consideration for our fellow humans? So what if i have to stand for a few stops just so someone pregnant, or elderly, or ill can sit down? Personally i get a nice feeling inside knowing i've helped a complete stranger in a small way.

I can't believe how bloody rude people are. As a kid, my mum insisted that I give my seat up to an adult if they were standing. It just became second nature. There's no way I'd be sat on my arse while a pregnant woman was on her feet. Similarly when on the tube a few weeks ago, I got up to give my seat to an elderly man and the collective disapproval of my fellow travellers was a nasty shock.