to be annoyed by this co workers email bit long sorry

[asteri]

I know I should just delete it but this kind of thing really annoys me. Also maybe Im just an over sensitive (half) greek but why is Greeks in capitals.....She sent this this morning:

The writer of this piece emigrated to UK just over 40 years ago - On the ship there were , Italians, Yugoslavs and GREEKS, (Note - All European people!!) all looking forward to starting a new life in ENGLAND . I arrived with £20 in my pocket and that's all I had to my name. Did I put my hand out?? Of course not - I got a job and paid my way just like everyone else who came to this country back then.
Now, it's my taxes that subsidize these people who think they have a God given right (read Allah) to come here and criticise those of us who have worked for the country we now call home.

If I didn't like what I saw when I got here I would have gone home - they have the same option. If they don't want to become BRITISH , they can................GO BACK TO WHERE THEY CAME FROM - WE DON'T NEED THEM HERE!!! DO WE NO NO NO

OUR BRITAIN!!!!!
When will this stop?
They want 2 of their own public holidays, because Christians have Christmas, Easter & Good Friday,
They force our children to eat Halal Meat Pies and Sausage Rolls from the school canteens, so the Muslim kids can feel more BRITISH, we were not consulted about this change, they went ahead and just did it.
Our foods are slowly all becoming Halal foods, our cheeses, chocolates even good old sanitarium foods
Our Government is ALLOWING this to happen, it has to stop now, while we still have some power to be able to stop it.

Regarding Our National Anthem
I am sorry, but after hearing they want to sing the National Anthem in Arabic- enough is enough. No where or at no other time in our nation's history, did they sing it in Italian, Japanese, Polish, Irish (Celtic), German, Portuguese, Greek, or any other language because of immigration. It was written in English, and should be sung word for word the way it was written.
The news broadcasts even gave the translation -- not even close.
I am not sorry if this offends anyone, this is MY COUNTRY - IF IT IS YOUR COUNTRY SPEAK UP -- please pass this along I am not against immigration just come through like everyone else. Get a sponsor; have a place to lay your head; have a job; pay your taxes, live by the rules AND LEARN THE LANGUAGE as all other immigrants have in the past -- and LONG LIVE GREAT BRITAIN !

PART OF THE PROBLEM. Think about this: If you don't want to forward this for fear of offending someone -YOU'RE PART OF THE PROBLEM !!!!

Will we still be the Country of Choice and still be BRITAIN if we continue to make the changes forced on us by the people from other countries who have come to live in BRITAIN because it is the Country of Choice??
Think about it!
IMMIGRANTS, NOT BRITONS , MUST ADAPT.
It is Time for THE BRITS to Speak up.

Thanks MmeLindt - useful link. Of course any "circulate or else" chain letter is bad news as it gets to the gullible as well as some whom one doesn't expect to be taken in.

(eg one of my sisters, at retirement age, forwarding stuff... must have some contact who has relatives in N America as the stuff I sometimes get is pro-Bush/pro-war and how bad it is that American troops have lost their lives... not going to go off on tangent about how the population has suffered as consequence of these damn wars, but "chain letters" are dumb.)

larrygrylls - sigh i didn't think there was any point addressing the content as it is so stupid. There are some factually inaccurate statements about Halal food and national anthems, and then a suggestion that people should pay taxes and learn the local language. Do they want a law against murder too?

I honestly can't see why that is racist and to say having English pride is an unfortunate status makes me so cross. I am proud of being English and I don't care who knows it. My exP is Portuguese and is very proud of his nation, and rightly so.
Why is it that being English and wanting England to stay English is seen as being racist????????
I'm not stirring I just genuinely don't understand what the problem is.

"wanting England to stay English" - what does this even mean?

Genuinely bemused.

Incidentally, so what if all meat such as beef, mutton or lamb is halal? It doesn't taste any different, FFS, it's the same meat, just slaughtered differently.

If someone said we couldn't eat pork because it's not halal, that would be different.

But no one has, so it doesn't matter.

And before you all start, no I'm not racist at all.
My in laws came to this country with 50p in their pocket, worked bloody hard for years and years and now live in a large 4 bed house with 2 cars and good jobs.
They worked hard to learn our language and our culture and enjoy working and living in England.
I admire them so much for what they've achieved.

BrightYoungThing - the problem with 'English' pride is defining what 'English' means in terms of something to take pride in, the fact that identities are fluid things and the problem of taking pride in an abstract concept that the majority of people who profess to 'membership' of were born into and so had no say in. How can YOU be proud of being English when it was nothing to do with you?

But the UK (and Ireland, where I'm from ) have been formed by immigrants. Celts, Saxons, Vikings. Traditions have been formed and shaped and then changed by new immigrants for years! Even if you look at the English language, some words are derived from Latin, some are more Teutonic. How do you decide what is English and what is traditional?

I think the mail is blatant propaganda targeted at a certain demographic. However this is an interesting issue and like or not there are a lot of people who would relate to that email. Most through ignorance but the rise of the BNP in some areas demonstrates there is a real problem that does need addressing. Recent stories about the crucifix not being allowed in hospital for health and safety reasons but Muslims being allowed to wear long sleeves doesn't help.

Equality means equal for all and different races, reglions and nationalities should not be treated differently whether positively or negatively where possible.

I am married to a foreign Muslim so in the thick of it so to speak. Interestingly in his country Turkey girls are not allowed by law to wear headscarf?s to school or uni due to the state insisting on secular education. He can not believe the trouble burkas and the like cause over here as they would not be tolerated in certain areas of public life for the same reason.

I often think it?s the more barmy pc ideas and housing policies that have encouraged racism recently though I think they are being addressed now. There will never be a perfect society but the majority will happy where the perception is it's fair to all.

BYT

Would be interested to hear your responses to my questions.

I am proud of being English and I don't care who knows it

i am also one of those who believe 'they have won the lottery of life' however, to express that pride at the end of a long rant about 'bloody immigrants' is an assertion of a different (racially defined, rather than nationally defined) variety of English identity.

I am phenomenally proud of the history of tolerance this country posseses, only ashamed that it has never been tolerant enough - and hate to see that destroyed by idiots forwarding rubbish like this.

and for work purposes 'the appearance of' discriminatory conent is sufficient (or is for for my firms HR policy)

Nasty

Straight to HR and a complaint in. It's the easiest way to deal with ignorant racists.

We should definitely keep all those darkies out. Let's start with that famous Palestinian Saint George, and he can take that bloody flag with him.

Ah.... hang on, that won't work, will it.......?

Send straight to HR and advise how it's been personalised to attack you.

This person does not deserve your consideration.

Did those of you who have criticised the e mail as offensive to the OP pass English language at GCSE/O level?! There seems to be a real lack of basic comprehension of what the, admittedly crudely written, e mail is saying

The e mail suggests that the European immigrants, including the GREEKS (sic), took the time to learn English and integrate themselves into the culture of the UK. It is complimenting that wave of immigrants and comparing it with some of the current wave, who come to the UK purely to live within their original culture but take advantage of the economic benefits available within a G7 high tax/high benefit society.

Oojmaflip, you are being very flippant when you suggest that one cannot take pride in English (British?) culture as it is fluid and non definable. A national culture can change healthily but there is a speed limit to this change. The fact that something is hard to define does not mean it does not have value. It is very easy for those of us (me included) who live in pleasant areas where the local immigrants are well educated and thoroughly assimilated to shout "racist" every time immigration is discussed openly. However, if you were white, living next to the new (as yet unbuilt) mosque in East London with a vast capacity (40,000?), hearing people openly call you Kaffir and tell you that you do not have a right to existence, you may feel very differently.

Both my parents are racially of Jewish extraction and were born in the african colonies (Kenya and S.A respectively). Their parents came from White Russia (Byelorus) and East Anglia (I know...) respectively. However, I was brought up with Easter, Christmas, Sunday roasts and, most importantly, the feeling that I was very lucky to be growing up in the world's oldest democracy and had a responsibility towards it. Although I find some of the language ("go home" for instance) distasteful, the point the e mail makes is not racist. It merely challenges multiculturalism and suggests immigrants have responsibilities towards the UK in return for the rights they receive. It is hard to disagree with that.

It's even harder to explain to a stupid person why their email is offensive.

Larrygrylls - that is a very shallow reading of the document. At the simplest level of meaning, one of the things it suggests is that "immigrants have responsibilities towards the UK in return for the rights they receive." I wouldn't say it is hard to disagree with that. I would say that it is almost impossible. In fact I have never heard anyone say that they don't. It is using a rhetorical device to pretend that there are people that hold this view in order to whip up opposition to a non-existent threat.

The whole tone and implication of the document implies racism against, in particular Muslims, implying that the country is being altered by them and that is a bad thing. And it tells lies about national anthems and food in order to push emotional buttons, despite the inaccuracy of the statements it makes.

It is hate speech because it seeks to promote hate of Immigrants and especially Muslims.

It is possible to discuss immigration without racism. This document is not an attempt to do so. It is an attempt to use immigration to whip up racism.

I didn't say English culture had no value - I said it was a strange thing to have pride in. One can have pride in your actions or achievements. If you are an immigrant then one of the things you may be proud of is achieving British citizenship. But being born English is no different to being born with blonde hair or brown eyes.

The fact that it is a fluid identity IS important - those who wish to promote hate present any change as negative. They would like to freeze the idea on Englishness around a definition that THEY control and that they believe favours them.

All immigrant groups initially tend to stick together and attempt to preserve their culture. Over generations they can be come more assimilated. But it can take many generations. Large parts of the Chinese community are still very insular for instance.

Islam has a wide range of views within it. In any community you will get fanatics and angry, stupid, young men. I live in an area with several large immigrant communities. There are conflicts. In the main though there are remarkably few problems in the public arena.

Shocking! I would send it to her boss. She should at the very least be embarassed by her ignorance, let alone her xenphobia.

And what does 'British' actually mean racially? Since prehistory Britain has been a place for immigration (and emmigration). Anglos were joined by Saxons. The Norman invasion. Danish. Celts. And the more recent immigration from around the world a direct result of our empire and commonwealth.

'Brits' have also emmigrated to other countries - America, Spain, Australia, Zimbabwe, Kenya etc etc etc.

People like this need to get real and realise what a changeable world we live in today.

Oojmaflip,

Well argued! I also cannot disagree with the actual arguments you make. I am also not really trying to defend a stupid ignorant document in itself. However...

If, as you say, my statement of trading rights against responsibilities is merely a rhetorical device, how do you deal with purely economic immigration, those here for benefits and free health and with no interest in participating in British life and culture? Also, would you set a limit on immigration or is all immigration "good" immigration? These are really tough questions and not answered by those who cry "racist" at the very mention of them.

In addition, the wave of muslim immigrants is huge and a certain proportion (not all) have no intention of ever assimilating. The huge wave of Jewish migrants into London's East End after the war have by and large assumilated already. It does take time but only a couple of generations, not forever. Fluid identity is important but so is speed of change. I love a mixed community and actually find Wimbledon a little too waspish for my liking! On the other hand, I would not like to live in a community in the UK where the majority of the people were not culturally British (ambiguity intended). There is a good example in Vancouver where Chinese immigration has been huge. In UBC, someone was complaining that only 4 out of a class of 132 taking his course were White, the rest were Chinese. These are "good" responsible immigrants, who will work and pay their taxes but surely there has to be something that makes Canada Canadian or Britain British?!

I think you are being rather disingenuous in your idea of only taking pride in your own personal achievements. Can one not take pride in one's heritage or one's own family. Do you not want your children to take pride in where they are from as well as where they are going?

Larrygrylls - Purely economic migrants are coming here with the aim of working and paying taxes. Immigrants CAN'T just turn up and start claiming benefits. They have to pass a 'habitual residence' test first. Unless they are asylum seekers of course, in which case we won't LET them work.

None of which is to say that there is no cost to immigration, but the idea that masses of people are turning up in this country in order to sit around on the dole is a fantasy.

I'm not sure about limits on immigration. I find it difficult to make a moral case for preventing someone who believes their life will be better for coming her from coming here, so morally I don't see a case for restricting immigration. But I'm not completely comfortable with this position.

Not all Jewish migrants have assimilated. I live near one of the largest communities of Hasidic Jews in London. They are pretty much the definition of unassimilated. Assimilation can take a long time.

I am not convinced there is anything 'real' beyond geography that makes Canada Canadian or Britain British. Canada's current identity is almost entirely created by immigrants over the last 300 years or so.

I want my children to take pride in what they DO. I don't hold with pride in or loyalty to abstract concepts. You should owe loyalty to PEOPLE and takes pride in achievments.

You should report this to your boss; work email should NOT be used in this way.

End of.

If she wants to have a discussion, there are better times and places...

larrygrylls posted "The e mail suggests that the European immigrants, including the GREEKS (sic), took the time to learn English and integrate themselves into the culture of the UK. It is complimenting that wave of immigrants and comparing it with some of the current wave, who come to the UK purely to live within their original culture but take advantage of the economic benefits available within a G7 high tax/high benefit society."

I think the author of this email probably despises all immigrants no matter what there nationality. This nod to european immigrants is simply there to make the author sound reasonable in order to sell the rest of the vile message which is a very thinly veiled attack on Muslims/Islam.

It's poorly disguised, poorly written, nationalist propaganda aimed at those gullible enough to take it a face value. Sadly there will be lots of people in the UK who will do just that.

This thread raises an interesting question though about what it is to be English and whether it is possible to express a pride in one's English nationality without being perceived as an ignorant xenophobe.

I am half-Irish. Growing up in the 70's I saw my mother on the receiving end of abuse from certain English people who imagined that she was essentially a terrorist or a terrorist sympathiser. I can remember once going out shopping with mum and a man shouting to her to "go back where you came from".

Clearly this ignorance and xenophobia existed then and we know it exists now, sadly with the Muslim community as the main target. But why should we let this define us as a nation.

These days, my English family all seem either indifferent to their nationality or borderline ashamed of it because they feel any expression of national pride would somehow align them with the nationalists.

They certainly wouldn't, as my Welsh husband does, drive around with their national flag in the car window.

It is so sad that the English flag and the English identity has been hijacked by the nationalist movement and that sections of society are not proud to be English and despise any expression of that pride.

In a few weeks when the World Cup starts the English flag will proliferate, it will fly from cars and bedroom windows everywhere and I guarantee that there will be a huge chunk of society that will cringe at the sight.

That's sad.