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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think fox hunting is not a big deal at all?

189 replies

chandellina · 16/04/2010 22:27

and should never have been the subject of national debate, since it affects about 100 people? (ok, maybe more, but not many)

I was a vegetarian when it was banned, btw. I just think it's such a non-issue, and can't believe it is still being trotted out as a reason not to vote Tory.

OP posts:
skihorse · 18/04/2010 19:40

carrots I very much agree with your point about cosmetics - all these people who get their knickers in a twist about a perceived "class" slight - I wonder what they've got in their make-up bags...

I'd rather my pet dog was ripped limb to limb than held down by metal clamps, its eyes prised open and chemicals dripped into its eyes at 20 minute intervals for weeks on end. But then I'm a right Tory me.

chandellina · 18/04/2010 20:56

thanks Carrots - all very good points that I agree with.

I have yet to see a strong argument for the other side.

OP posts:
Tinnitus · 18/04/2010 23:49

Ok, that sounds like a challenge. try this.

The whole point for me is not that killing fluffy little reynard is wrong, but taking pleasure in it, making a game out of it is sick. all the other arguments aside, we are obliged to censor our own society and demand basic standards, killing for pleasure in well below those standards.

If you think it is a class-est movement to stop this you are wrong, all the cruel blood sports associated with the lower classes were baned decades ago, so it is class privilege that has kept it going this long.

skihorse · 19/04/2010 03:09

Hare-coursing is not "hoity-toity". Jeez, there are sooo many myths surrounding this entire issue it's just unbelieveable. If I'd known that I could get paid to go hunting for example (as stated up there ^) - I'd have saddled the nag every time I wanted a new handbag!

I think some people have been reading too much Jilly Cooper...

chandellina · 19/04/2010 09:18

Tinnitus - defend fishing please. Clearly it is a "game."

I believe the pleasure for most hunters lies in the hunt or chase, not in the actual death.

I'm no expert on fox hunting but have been assured here that the fox usually dies instantly after the first hound bites its throat.

OP posts:
Tinnitus · 19/04/2010 11:08

Fishing for food is not really the same thing as fishing for sport but neither one employs the pageantry and carnival of fox hunting. It is nor required that the fish feel terror and suffering for hours before it is caught and killed.

If the pleasure is in the hunt not the kill, then why are hunts refusing to endorse non lethal hunting, chasing human decoys leaving scented trails. No, the hunters need the kill.

And you are right, you are no expert on hunting, the fox endures hours of terror being chased by hounds before being torn to pieces, the idea that the dogs make some kind of surgical incision to painlessly euthanise the fox, is laughable. If you have ever been bitten by a dog you will know they give little thought to the suffering of those they attack.

The best argument for fox hunting I have heard is that other methods of pest control are infective. but the history of the British Wolf makes a lie of that.

carrotsarenottheonlyvegetable · 19/04/2010 12:38

"YABU and a bit Tory."

Would people quit using the term "Tory" as a term of abuse, already? Someone's choice of party to vote for is their democratic right, and their own choice, made often for a whole host of reasons and not just because of one issue, and should be respected.

"The whole point for me is not that killing fluffy little reynard is wrong, but taking pleasure in it, making a game out of it is sick."

The way I see it is that if the hunt is happening anyway, there's no problem with people following the hunt. It makes no difference either way to the fox - it's only our perception of it - and the only thing that matters is whether it affects the fox, which it doesn't. I absolutely disagree with fox hunting for pleasure unless there is a need to cull the fox, but if there is a need to cull the fox, why not hunt behind?

"If the pleasure is in the hunt not the kill, then why are hunts refusing to endorse non lethal hunting, chasing human decoys leaving scented trails. No, the hunters need the kill."

The answer is, because the other methods of fox culling are far more cruel, and there remains a need to cull foxes, ergo a need for lethal hunting.

"Fishing for food is not really the same thing as fishing for sport but neither one employs the pageantry and carnival of fox hunting. It is nor required that the fish feel terror and suffering for hours before it is caught and killed."

Fishing for food is irrelevant in this context. Fishing (catch and return) for sport is cruel and hideous and should be banned. The fish feels terror and suffering for minutes - is that ok as it's not "hours"? Furthermore the pain doesn't stop when its released as the hole in its mouth still needs to heal. That could go on for weeks

I don't understand the term "pageantry and carnival". Fishing may not be on horseback therefore not interesting to watch (assuming you're interested in horses), but I don't see what that has to do with anything. Again, you're confusing what matters to the animal with what doesn't.

"And you are right, you are no expert on hunting"

Who isn't?

"the fox endures hours of terror being chased by hounds before being torn to pieces, the idea that the dogs make some kind of surgical incision to painlessly euthanise the fox, is laughable. If you have ever been bitten by a dog you will know they give little thought to the suffering of those they attack."

Dogs who attack humans are seldom are able to kill instantly. Something of a scale issue, usually (anyone thinking of towel-related space invasions here, or just me?). I'm not sure anyone's mentioned "surgical incisions" so please, if you want to make a rational argument, stay rational.

Dogs are not thinking of the suffering they're inflicting. They're thinking of not letting their prey get away. Best way to do that is kill it instantly, which if you see any trained hunting dog catching prey that it's supposed to kill (as opposed to, say, a retriever type gun dog) it will kill it in one bite. Dogs who attack humans aren't seeing them as prey, they're usually defending themselves or their property (or similar). It's not about a meal.

The foxes don't usually run for hours - usually minutes at a time - but even if the hunt goes on a long while I maintain it's better than being shot badly and left to die over a week or more.

It's a balance of necessary evils and when a better option becomes available, I'll take it. In the meantime, I maintain it's the cleanest, safest, most effective and most animal friendly option available.

WebDude · 19/04/2010 15:02

I don't understand the term "pageantry and carnival".

Sounds like you've never been near a hunt, or even seen any depiction of a hunt, then.

Tinnitus · 19/04/2010 15:40

If you read the OPs last line you might see why I said it sounded a bit Tory.

If you read my last post, you will see I in no way advocated fishing, of any kind, in any way. my position remains unstated.

If you read my post prior to that you will find why I think it matters what is going on behind the dogs.

Dogs have no concept of their own size. that is why they need whiskers, It is also why they will take on other dogs of different size. in the head of a dog, it is still a pre-domesticated wolf.

The fact that no humane alternative is in use is no excuse for barbarism.

onagar · 19/04/2010 16:06

I eat meat, but don't hurt or kill animals for pleasure.

I care less about the fox than I do about living in the same country as someone who does kill animals for fun. In addition I found it disturbing when most of them said "we just won't obey the law anyway" - and didn't.

If I sit outside my house killing hamsters for fun is that acceptable? How about if I buy a dog and train it to kill guinea pigs or cute fluffy rabbits in my garden? would the neighbours be right to complain?

They argue that the foxes need killing of course, but a cow needs killing if you want to eat it, but we have laws about them being killed humanely and it's not a sporting event.

Also.. does anyone remember a fuss a good while back about them going out of their way to ensure they didn't die out so there'd be a good supply? I don't recall if it was proved or not, but maybe someone knows.

fascicle · 19/04/2010 17:09

"Also.. does anyone remember a fuss a good while back about them going out of their way to ensure they didn't die out so there'd be a good supply? I don't recall if it was proved or not, but maybe someone knows."

Article from the Observer in 2002 about the practice of some hunts helping foxes to breed:

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/feb/17/hunting.ruralaffairs

This makes a mockery of the fox population control argument, as does research pre and post foot and mouth disease, which found no increase in fox numbers despite the enforced hunting ban at the time.

The argument that Carrotsarenot... puts forward about hunting being cruelty free and foxes dieing quickly, with a quick nip to the neck, is also absolute nonsense, as evidenced by a home office enquiry in 2000:

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2000/jun/11/hunting.ruralaffairs

chandellina · 19/04/2010 19:41

i am sensing hypocrisy from the meat eaters here who say hunting is wrong because it involves pleasure. How many times have I watched someone carve a roast with downright glee? And fishing certainly involves its own types of "pageantry."

OP posts:
Tinnitus · 19/04/2010 20:20

hypocrisy
? noun (pl. hypocrisies) the practice of claiming to have higher standards or beliefs than is the case.

You have no idea if I'm an omnivore or not. I have claimed that taking pleasure in another's suffering is sick, do you put your roast in the oven alive? What has eating a roast got to do with "the unspeakable in full pursuit of the inedible"?

olderandwider · 19/04/2010 20:41

I don't think fox hunting is any crueller than the other methods of killing. Their numbers need controlling, and the fox dies within a matter of seconds, according to the Burns report. It may not be pretty or feel very "nice", but just because we disapprove of something is not a reason to ban it. That leads to the tyranny of the majority.

Also, didn't Labour introduce the anti-foxhunting bill as payback for £1m donation made to them before the 1997 election by animal welfare groups?
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/antihunting-group-donated-acircpound50000-to-labour- 665026.html

chandellina · 19/04/2010 20:49

I wasn't personally attacking you Tinnitus.

I don't take pleasure in anyone's suffering (nor am I a hunter), but I acknowledge that suffering is involved in the provision of many things that give me pleasure or make my life comfortable (e.g., meat, leather shoes, cosmetics, medication).

I think the problem here is that people disagree about the perceived suffering of the fox, and the reasons behind the pleasure for the hunters.

OP posts:
jurisfictionoperative · 19/04/2010 21:58

Hypocrisy. Making an issue out of the unspeakable pursuing the uneatable, whilst tucking into a Sunday roast which was intensively reared in an unacceptable farming situation!

Tinnitus · 20/04/2010 00:12

"tyranny of the majority."

Did you really mean to say that? Are you really going to put that phrase out there? Can you not see how pitiful that is?

It's called Democracy.

Tinnitus · 20/04/2010 00:17

chandellina

I'm sorry, I was trying to address the OP, not solve the entire worlds problems. I stuck to the issue because the best way to make crap out of a thread is to go way off subject.

If you want me to defend my opinion on leather goods. wait until I give it.

jurisfictionoperative · 20/04/2010 00:57

Can you call the ban on fox hunting democracy, if labour use it as repayment for a donation as olderand wide reports? A documentary I personally watched reported that no referendum ever returned a majority vote in favour of the ban. Not my idea if democracy!

Tinnitus · 20/04/2010 03:01

No referendum has ever been taken on this subject, however it was a manifesto pledge in '97 so, yes, I can call it democracy.

Promising to do something when you get in to office and then doing it once elected. that is a functioning democracy in action. I not sure what your "idea of democracy" would be, but the one I live in sometimes works this way.

chandellina · 20/04/2010 07:45

Something about this issue really irks me. It reminds me of how voters in the US will be mobilised by topics like gun control or abortion instead of public services that actually are the main use of our tax money and the main reason we have government.

OP posts:
JosieZ · 20/04/2010 07:50

Another point which 'animal lovers' refuse to acknowledge is the cruelty their lovely pusscats inflict on the British bird population. I think 5 million was the estimated number of small birds killled by domestic cats. Because they don't follow them on horseback this is quite ok, apparently.

Someone stated above that she wouldn't sit on her doorstep killing hamsters but she would, probably, quite happily keep a cat.

This makes me believe that foxhunting boils down to a class issue - they don't like posh folk galloping around the countryside.

Kathyjelly · 20/04/2010 07:58

It never really bothered me either. But then I have chickens and I suppose that counts as a vested interest.

Compared to standards in education, though....it is pretty irrelevant.

olderandwider · 20/04/2010 09:45

Tinnitus, tyranny of the majority is not my phrase, it was coined over a hundred years ago. Google it - it basically means that any majority is capable of tyrannising a minority.

And I don't think it serves democracy well to have special interest groups donate to political parties in order to "influence" policy. Does that mean if I have enough cash to set up my own narrow interest group I can bribe a Party and expect legislation favourable to my cause? That is pretty close to what happened before the 1997 election when animal welfare groups gave Labour £1m.

Khanage · 20/04/2010 10:04

I am not keen on foxes. We get a lot of mangy old moth-eaten flea-ridden baby-eating specimens in Balham. I would love to see the hunt leaping over the back garden fences and taking them out. But perhaps that makes me a barbaric twat, although only middle-class, sadly.

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