for getting annoyed with the MN obsession with research data to support EVERYTHING

[AngryWasp]

okay, so I live with an academic. I come onto MN to get REPITE from having to reference every opinion.

Sometimes I just like to say what I know without going onto a blardy academic database to retrieve supporting articles. I am happy for them to be considered 'opinions' until such time as someone wants to search for them, it might even be me on occassion but fgs MN is my switch-off.

My ds is 3. Live with it. I should not have to scan in a copy of his birth certificate.

If someone is absolutely insistant on something despite opposing opinions then sure, ask politely if they can point to some research, but don't go searching through threads with the sole aim of finding something somewhere that someone has said without linking to research.

I find it bullying behaviour quite frankly!

AIBU or are there some sympathetic posters out there?

YANBU this is so annoying, and I really hate it, cant people have an opinion, research aint everything. There are some very good qualitative data from people, own life experiences, points of view etc. Just because they have not got research to support it does not make it wrong or not being allowed to express themselves as long as they are not rude or offensive.

I haven't noticed this - what proportion of posts on MN actually ask for evidence and what proportion do not? I think we need to know before we can decide whether YABU or not.

time to step away from the computer

No yanbu! I've pointed out on a couple of threads that these are virtual conversations and I don't want to research and quantify everything I say. It turns into a game of one upmanship over who can find the loftiest stats, frankly, in these days of google, evidence can be found to support or disprove just about anything.

It's not big, it's not clever and it doesn't make for a flow of conversation either. I'm really very glad you've started this thread.

It depends IMO.

If someone is stating something as fact, then I would like proof of the basis for the argument.

If it is an opinion then it is that. An opinion that needs no factual evidence behind it.

Also personal stories are of course not needing proof.

show me the evidence that someone has asked to see your 3yo's birth certificate.

Go on...show me!

Can't say I have noticed this, maybe I look at the wrong threads.

YANBU, these are usually people who know nothing of the topic which is being discussed and feel if they add some stats they'l look as if they actually know what they're talking about

I found a lot on the bf/bottlefeeding forum and reasearch being banded aabout to prove the bf babies are more intelligent,healthier, slimer than non bf babies and about extendednatural term weaning.

Depends on the subject. Depends on whether the reference is good or not. Putting a link in may be helpful and its up to you whether you read it.

I haven't noticed the OTT behaviour you mention but I won't ask you to search through threads and link to an example to prove your point

I haven't seen this a lot here (and i spend too much time here)- but I kind of get your point. If you are wading in on big topics though, with a contentious point of view, I guess you should be prepared to back it up, even just a bit. It's irritating if you have been debating a complex topic and somebody rocks up and says 'I have only read the OP, but you are all twats'. Why bother? But if it's just something about weddings or whatever, them yes, you should just be able to say what you think.

If someone is presenting something as fact, and is insistant, then I think it is fair enough to ask for something that backs it up.

But if someone just says something you happen not to agree with, it is bullying behaviour to give them a data challenge. Kinda like 'In my street they are mainly white labourers' and then someone challenges me simply because they either don't like what I am saying or just don't like me and say 'can your point to your source?'

wtf? NO

Don't believe me if you like. I might be wrong too. I am giving you my 'perception' and it is as valid as yours!

But cant i have an opinion without backing up with research? Research is also open to scrutiny and is not watertight by any means, it can be proved wrong to.

But TBH you can find a reference for all sorts of things. And post it, and people will nod sagely as though the point was now proven. But in most subjects, a quick google scholar search will throw up conflicting evidence. I reckon the whole citation thing can be more misleading than not doing it at all.

Mind you, I asked someone for a reference once. But she was talking out of her arse...

Well it depends what you say. If you say 'me and my friends' 3 year olds all enjoy playing with sand so I think yours will to' then no, of course you don't have to provide a source.

If however, you say 'nursery causes mental health issues in children' then I will want some kind of evidence to back that up. It's not bullying, it's about making cogent arguments rather than sweeping generalisations

Sure, there is nothing wrong with asking for research evidence. Nothing wrong at all.

However, it needs to be done in a way that adds things to a thread, not in a way designed to beat a poster down iyswim.

Perhaps LB, but that particular point really can stay within opinion territory because actually there IS a massive amount of research proving and disproving it.

However, depending on how the thread goes it is fine to get into the academic realm, but again, it is not fine to use absence of data (whether it exists or not) to bash another poster over the head with, unless it is more than just a difference of opinion and they really are being offensive.

I'd say YABU, I'm afraid.

If you want to express a subjective opinion on the relative merits of rich tea biscuits vs hobnobs, then fire away with gay abandon. But if someone rocks up and says something dismissive, offensive or even harmful on a subject where health outcomes are at stake, I'd say they are fair game for getting a shedload of stats dumped on them. People take on board what they read, and facts are different from opinions. They can be corrected, and should, in certain circumstances.

I don't understand your paragraph about someone searching through threads etc. What have I missed?

Bibs- are you thinking of mansplaining? Tres dull, I agree.

Well, the particular time I mentioned, I was using it as a stick

I dunno - people state things as fact, or make misleading claims for studies which closer inspection doesn't actually follow. Or they link to opinion pieces which make vague references to published studies. And that is annoying. It's especially annoying when you spend all day trying to teach children not to do it.

It's a hard mindset to get out of I guess!

Sometimes I think it is important, when people are off on their own personal mission rant and throwing wild "facts" and figures around - but other times it isn't, and it can be quite bullying.

I got clobbered once for stating that I had personal experience of a well-known journalist's research-and-follow-up technique, showing that said journalist was not quite as transparent/truthful as some would like to believe - but I refused to post evidence as that would have outed me rather spectacularly! So I was simply disbelieved. Crap situation.

Considering that a lot of research is done under the auspices of industrial funding and therefore probably influence, it is a mistake to assume that all research is equally valid in its outcomes. There has even been research done to show this!
My favourite one was somebody researching the validity of the statistics - I can't remember the numbers but it was quite shocking the percentage of papers that contain statistical errors that changed the outcome of the trial. It is also important to note that lots of pharmaceutical trials are written up by doctors who never see the raw data, they only see the manipulated data. Doctors and scientists know this - I was trying to find a link (oh the irony) and found a write up by a doc in the BMJ about the poor quality of research but I can't get the full article because it needs a sign-in - but you can see the start of it here. It might be an old article but things haven't changed!

I feel that i should be allowed to have an opinion (within reason of course) and for it to be taken as just that an opnion without me trawling throught he net looking for research to support it.

I agree with the others - It depends on the type of conversation / thread / debate it is.

If it is asking people for their opinions, well then no evidence is needed. an opinion is just that, your personal point of view, so people say what they think, people are free to disagree with each other. No one person is right or wrong, because it is just opinions.

However, when this starts turning into factual claims, then I think people should be able to back up whatever they say (or accept that it is just their opinion!).

What annoys me, is not people using evidence, but those who fail to see the difference between their own personal opinions on things, and factual claims. However, I also think that research is not synonymous with evidence - we can have other evidence than just scientific research alone.

Thread on here at the moment re epidurals.

Poor girl just wanted to consider her options as she is pregnant.

Thread has turned into one giant research and moral debate.

YANBU.
its like the easter sunday thread.
people were throwing around 'facts' about christianity, and 'facts' AGAINST christianity.

i am atheist because you cant answer everything.

my pet hate is people who think that someone being horrible obviously had a bad childhood/traumatic experience/bad day or they have some medical condition and that we are all being unreasonable to judge.

some people are just horrible, bloody deal with it. someone tried to diagnose my DS with behavioural problems when he was younger. if he actually did have behavioural problems, we would have tackled that together, but he didnt, he was just going through a bad stage combined with just his personality really. im not accepting a diagnoses for something thats just PERSONALITY. there are people with real behavioural problems out there, lets spend more [a LOT more] money&time on them please!