to think that anything other than total gender equality in the parental leave system is an absolute outrage?

[joanneg20]

Well, am I?

Now that all the political parties are packaging themselves as 'progressive', have to be seen to be shaking hands with black and/or gay people on their leaflets, why is no-one willing to tackle this properly?

Surely any system other than a set period of parental leave to be shared as the two partners see fit is massively sexist and discriminatory and how Labour can be promising 'a future fair for all' whilst refusing to commit to this baffles me.

Imagine a similar discriminatory system applied in any other way. Different holiday entitlements for gay and straight people? Different working hours for Asians and non-Asians? I don't think so. But parental leave is obviously a different matter - why? Why does anyone assume that because I was born female I wish to 'enjoy' (to use the terminology of the Labour manifesto) 9 months' maternity leave, and that my partner only wants 4 weeks - or possibly the ability to share the period after 6 months (which hardly anyone takes anyway).

Why aren't we all out on the street about this? And I include myself in that question. I think it really is the major feminist issue remaining to be tackled in Britain - almost on a par with getting the vote in terms of what it could do for gender equality.

farmerjones - and do you consider inequality in the job market an acceptable trade off for allowing women to have the time off to do those things?

"I am shocked that some women here are honestly bemoaning the fact that men who take leave might not be taken seriously in the workplace! Gobsmacked. So we're happy for this to be our remit our we? And for employers to take us less seriously for that very reason?"

Completely agree, OP.

If maternity leave was made share-able between parents, yes, there would be a few years (maybe quite a long time) when employers would continue to "expect" the woman to take all or most of the leave. Men would undoubtedly come under more pressure/ censure than women if they took leave, especially in some male-dominated industries.

However, there was also pressure/censure on women who chose to take leave when maternity leave was brought in. Many found their careers affected as a result. And I don't see anyone arguing that maternity leave was a bad idea.

Gradually, as more men chose to take up their share of leave, the prejudice against men taking leave would diminish (to a large extent), just as the initial unfavourable reactions to maternity leave have diminished (to a large extent).

If we don't change the rules, then there is no chance for the prejudices to diminish, as they will continue to be entrenched by the current unbalanced leave provisions.

ooojimaflip - agree with all your comments on the thread but....

Your male friend who works for the utility will no doubt have been given the sabattical by his employer because the law requires them to show flexibility to parents but there is still a good chance it will have done his career harm. He will not know until he comes back. It marks him out as not being truely committed - I know this from having been in that position.

Telling people that I was giving up work to care for children was one of the weirdest experiences of my life. It was like a switch had been flicked. Suddenly, I was treated very much as women are who take maternity leave. Odd comments, little jokes, downright hostility - from men and women.

Women of course get the brunt of this type of discrimination of course because so few men take the route of giving up work from high powered jobs to look after children. IME discrimination happens to parents not just women. So forgive me for being a bit at those posters who have implied that women should get more rights than men because they give birth and breast feed.

Men and women need equal rights but shifting society to really truely honestly agreeing that men should have equal rights to parental leave and work flexibility is still going to be a long hard road. If we got it, then of course the spin off benefit woud be that women also would also face less discrimination for the reasons others have stated.

BeenBeta - I don't know the full details - I hope it is because he has a good relationship with his Director, and that it won't effect his career.

I really think the only solution is to harmonise entitlements and wait a couple of generations.

"I would like to see a man asking for paternity leave in a large investment bank in the City. Career death and loss of many £100k of bonus would follow. Guaranteed."

Yes, probably true (I know many bankers).

But

(1) this also applies to any woman taking maternity leave in a large investment bank. Surprise surprise, there are no senior women in investment banks. If there is a negative career impact aspect to taking leave, surely that impact should apply to both sexes.

(2) even if there will be a negative impact on the man's career, surely it should be up to the couple to decide which is better - not impacting the man's career, or all the benefits that him taking leave might bring (eg allowing the woman to keep up her career/allowing the man to see more of his new baby/etc). Some couples would choose one way, some the other. At the moment there is no choice.

To all those arguing about the physical impact of childbirth - FGS. That covers the first, say, 4 weeks. No reason the rest couldn't be shared.

minipie - very true. Like I said. I am convinced that a lot of men would get the same unfair treatment as a lot of women do when it comes to child care if they pushed for paternity leave.

Men know (or fear) their employer will hold it against them so they don't ask and so they largely avoid the risk of upsetting the employer.

I agree with the OP.

We currently share looking after our 18 month old daughter. In fact my husband does two 14-hour nightshifts a week, while I do three 8-hour shifts. That's the way it's worked out best regarding our work patterns and our employers' needs. We're both journalists -- him telly news, me a global news and financial information company.

From a personal perspective, he wouldn't have it any other way. He says to me how much he values the opportunity to spend so much time with her, effectively raising her on a minute-to-minute basis, rather than looking after her on the odd occasion. Their relationship is wonderful so far (sometimes I get a hint of jealousy as she just wants to breastfeed when I walk in the door!)

This from a man who, when I was pregnant, vowed he would never change a nappy because that was what the maid did (we had DD in Singapore)

Have both our careers suffered? Well, it depends on how you look at it. My husband was a big cheese in Asia, and has now rather pissed his immediate London boss (childless and unsympathetic) with his demands for flexible work.

Mine hasn't really suffered but I have had to flexible about the role I went back to.

If anything, his career has suffered in the near term more than mine, because his boss is less understanding (but has to offer flexible working) and more begrudging, whereas at my work there has been a long precedent set of women working 3-4 days a week or working early hours/split shifts and at the same time being in positions of some responsibility.

That said, this is my situation coming back to London. When I was posted in Singapore I only received 3 months' maternity leave and was told if I didn't come back on the right date and wanted repatriation they would fire me. Still, they paid insurance which paid for the 30k it cost to have her, so I can't complain too much....