to think that anything other than total gender equality in the parental leave system is an absolute outrage?

[joanneg20]

Well, am I?

Now that all the political parties are packaging themselves as 'progressive', have to be seen to be shaking hands with black and/or gay people on their leaflets, why is no-one willing to tackle this properly?

Surely any system other than a set period of parental leave to be shared as the two partners see fit is massively sexist and discriminatory and how Labour can be promising 'a future fair for all' whilst refusing to commit to this baffles me.

Imagine a similar discriminatory system applied in any other way. Different holiday entitlements for gay and straight people? Different working hours for Asians and non-Asians? I don't think so. But parental leave is obviously a different matter - why? Why does anyone assume that because I was born female I wish to 'enjoy' (to use the terminology of the Labour manifesto) 9 months' maternity leave, and that my partner only wants 4 weeks - or possibly the ability to share the period after 6 months (which hardly anyone takes anyway).

Why aren't we all out on the street about this? And I include myself in that question. I think it really is the major feminist issue remaining to be tackled in Britain - almost on a par with getting the vote in terms of what it could do for gender equality.

Ime it isn't the pre-pregancy bit that's the problem in terms of discrimination suffered - it's the return to work after leave where I and many, many others have felt things have gone against them. Extending the option to take parental leave to men won't do anything to help their wives and partners returning from m/l, it will simply EXTEND the discrimination to all parents.

I once worked with a middle aged (slightly embittered) woman who wrote each year to the local authority demanding that every WOMAN should be entitled to six months (as it was then) paid leave. Her argument was why should mothers get it and nobody else.

I didn't use all of my entitlement either time, and DH would not have wanted to be at home for longer than a couple of weeks, but the idea of splitting it seems an acceptable one in principle.

Northernlurker - yes that's the idea - extend the discrimination to all parents. That is most of the working population at one time or another.

However, I am not angry that the government doesn't do every thing I want. It's all about priorities isn't it. I would rather money was spent to try and lift the very poorest children out of poverty, than meet the needs of the timy minority of men who would even consider staying at home.

Companies would then eventually adapt.

I was under the impression that maternity leave was really for breast feeding, hence its been increased as the weening age has become later. Not sure DH would have hacked it if he'd had to do some of the breast feeding!

How would it work in practise though? Would the companies have to split the leave as the parents decide-eg mother has 9 months, dad 3, but the cost is split equally, or would each just pay for the leave their employee had taken? Administratively that could be a nightmare. It's also more practical for the mother to take the leave, especially in the early months as there are recovery from birth/potential breastfeeding issues. Also, one advantage for employers of women having the extended parental leave is that they can only have one pregnancy at a time, so employers know what they're letting themselves in for leave wise. Some men do have more than one partner. The effects of this hadn't occured to me until my friend had to deal with this situation in her work-a male employee said he was going to commence his 3 week paid paternity leave on x date, and that since his mistress was due a week later he would anticipate taking his next period a week later! Now if he was having 2 periods of 6 months that would cause an unanticipated problem!
On a positive note, if parental leave was/could be shared 50/50 everywhere there could be an amazingly positive effect on sexual discrimination in recruitment. We all know it goes on-obviously not as blatently now, but I have heard employers say that if they had to chose between a woman and a man both of child bearing age, all other things being equal, they would chose the man because of the possibility of maternity leave issues. A change in policy could change all that...

Clemette - I hope you pointed out to her that parental leave is for the benefit of children not parents.

BellsaRinging - The companies would pay for the leave taken by the parent that works for them, and reclaim it from the state as now.

She wasn't a woman to be reasoned with oojimaflip. Like most people who haven't had a baby she thought maternity leave was an extended holiday. Not surprisingly, she was also one of the ones who gave me the hardest time about going back to work ("that poor baby, left in that nursery blah blah blah")

I earned more than DH. Always have. I had to take the minimum time because we couldn't afford for me not to. Given the choice of a CM or DH to take over when I went to work, I know who we'd have chosen. The assumption that this won't be the case is sexist and unfair.

clemette - I hope in that case you took the baby into work ;)

Totally agree with OP. I too am shocked that this comes up so rarely and that so many of my intelligent friends dismiss the idea out of hand.

It is true that often it makes practical sense for the mother to be at home because she's breastfeeding. But there are plenty of mothers who don't, or who would feed only in mornings/evenings, or who work close enough to home that they could get back for feeds, or who work part time..or from home...the list goes on, and anyway, I thought we were supposed to have some FREEDOM?!

Totally agree that parents should be able to choose what works for them - anything else is the state deliberately perpetuating the "mothers stay at home and fathers go out to work" mentality.

Am ranting. Can you tell that I totally agree with the OP?!

I take a more positive view in that, now that we have a year's maternity leave, splitting it between parents seems like the logical next move. That's not a disaster IMO, we could regard this era as an interim state.

Lots of men (dh included) would rather eat their own eyeballs than stay at home with a baby.

Mumblechum if they had the option I think a lot of men would quite like to. As long as there's no forcing involved.

Thanks Starkadder! That's how I feel (obviously) - just astonished that such a basic inequality isn't more widely acknowledged as such.

I take the points re administrative difficulties, but administrative difficulties are not an acceptable reason to leave a huge injustice in place.

And mumblechum - lots of women also loathe staying at home full-time with a baby, but have no choice because of the way the current system is set up. I have enjoyed my time with my baby so much more since I went back to work part-time, and my partner did the same, and I felt the work was shared and I had some support.

mumblechum - and a lot of other men would rather stay at home with the baby then sit hunched over their desks waiting for that tiny bit of the day between going home and the baby going to bed.

I would like to be treated equally, and fortunately treating men equally in this case will also lead to women being treated more equally, it's about as close to a win-win scenario as you tend to get.

And just for the record it is perfectly possible to bf and go back to work.

That's right, I couldn't BF but expressed and was back at work 30 hours pwk when ds1 was 10 weeks old.

YANBU - of course it should be equal for men and women but firms are campaigning aggressivley to prevent the extension of maternity leave to 12 months. Political parties are hardly going go down the road of allowing both parents to take leave.

I'm with OP on this. We have no hope for equality in the workplace until men are entitled to extended leave, to be taken either concurrently or consecutively to the mother's leave.

Equality in the home is much harder to achieve without equality in the workplace.

I completely agree with the OP and I'm shocked by the resistance to what she's said. Modern families need all the flexibility they can get and working women don't need this negative attitude from potential employers. Choice is a wonderful thing.

Absolutely agree with the OP and I actually find it amazing that most people don't agree that families should be able to choose how to split parental leave. It doesn't matter whether most men wouldn't take advantage of it, the option should be open.