To question this...?

[foureleven]

I saw this on another thread and kind of hope the mum in question doesnt see this because I dont want to cause offense... just genuinely interested in peoples views..

(..treads carefully...)

I spotted this person say that she is a SAHM and her husband brings home £1000 a month. Plus they get child tax credits. Now I assume this is not 'working tax credits' as thats for childcare right? And they wont need it if she doesnt work.

It may be that its not a lot of money anyway and not worth getting one's knickers in a twist for but AIBU to wonder why a SAHM can claim benefits (other than initial maternity benefits of course)?

If you are a SAHM because your partner earns enough to cover everything thats one thing (and a debate for another thread, this is not ANOTHER SAHM Vs WOHM debate!)but why can women receive top up money to be able to stay at home with the children they cant really afford to?

Shouldnt we be responsible for bringing enough money in to the home for our children?

Genuinely ponders....

[tries hard not to rise to it emoticon]

I am realitively well off. I have worked and sacrificed for every penny and I have never ever thought that any thing at all in my life has been my 'right' thats how I am.

You and others will probably say that makes me sound bitter or whatever. Yes maybe I am a little for somethings and thats why I try to see other peoples point of view and appreciate it, because just getting wound up creates negative energy.

Although I am so much more well off than many, I think considering we both work almost 50 hours a week each, we actually dont have bundles once everythings gone out. But that doent make me hate 'fat cats' etc because many of them will have taken risks that I wouldnt have had the guts too and have worked for way longer hours... for most people wealth hasnt fallen on to their laps.

I didnt say I wasnt well off, i said there is always someone better off.
Unless you are maybe Simon Cowell Im pretty certain there is someone better off than you.

There are people better off than me, and worse.

I bet there are people worse off than you runnybum, but I can also bet when your money starts to run out and the end of the month you have a little grumble about something rather than sit down and thank god for the fact you are not a third world orphan.

We all have a cross to bear jeesh.

Nobody said its fallen in your laps. But don't act like you are badly off, because its pathetic.
I have a family income half of yours, but I still know I am very very lucky. We all are. And like I said, you get a lot of services for your taxes.

Just seen this OP and am a bit shocked tbh. If both of them worked (assuming the SAHM doesn't have a £100k career to walk into) they would most probably cost the taxpayer more, both in child tax credits and in working tax credit for childcare. Quite possibly considerably more. Instead they shoulder the burden of a lower income with the minimum level of help available.

I know this because I we are in a similar position to the couple you are talking about and I've been researching it. As a household with a single full time earner we have stumbled upon the option which is the least cost to the taxpayer and which gives us by far the lowest income overall. I have discussed this at length on another thread recently. It would be good if people occasionally did their own research.

So OP you are not only being unreasonable, you are making incorrect assumptions and it is, in fact, none of your business anyway.

My dh pays shitloads of tax and I don't see what is wrong with us getting a little bit of it back before the govt blows it all on things I resent paying for! When people talk about tax credits being paid by the govt, it's not the govts money, it is ours and it's nice to see some of it returned to people who need it.

I guess everyone's wage would have to go up, until it levelled off at the top. Then tax credits have no reason to exist (in my head anyway!) at least not for an average worker (this is excluding people who need them due to being a single parent/unable to work etc.) Tax credits is just the government letting you keep more of your own money (if it's based on your wages). If they were cut right down, and the employers took up the slack from their multi million pound buisnesses, there would be more money from your taxes to spend on other things. The government isn't giving you more money to survive, other workers are. It's just wrapped up in a nice package to make you think the government is giving you something. This money you are getting back is from yours, and other workers taxes (ie wages) in the first place. And all the while most the major employers are laughing all the way to the bank having their companies run by a bunch of £5.80 an hour staff because why pay more than you 'have' to? The point is tax credits are shit, in the fact that no one earning £30,000 should have to also rely on (not exactly but pretty much) a benefit to make ends meet. Something is wrong when 'help' is needed to be given even if you work full time.

well, it's a difficult ethical question, innit? there are various opposing 'rights' or 'needs' which the govt is trying to respond to, with a rather complex set of beenfits.

ANY help you get is a benefit, whether it's a tax break or a 'hand out'.

In an ideal world, each family would be able to support itself, and be able to decide whether one parent should stay home/work pt/both work etc.

However, the grim reality, particularly in an overcrowded country such as the UK, is that the cost of living is too high for a lot of family's to sustain this.

So, there's each family's right to live how they deem best for themselves.
There's each child's right to live in relative affluence, rather than poverty.
There's the right of people to have children.

There's the duty of 'society' to care for its members.

And it's also pretty obvious, that people who work would rather NOT be paying extra taxes to support other families when their own finances are limited.

So, it would seem harsh, but reasonable, to say, no extra benefits unless both parents work, earn first & claim benefits second, but in practice, there's too many variables meaning that it's just not possible to do that without risking child poverty. So, the govt protects the weakest, but providing benefits, which should be there to give the children a good standard of living.

Can I just reiterate that if this couple earned £1000 a month between them they would pay about half the tax between them and be entitled to much more money from "taxpayers". They could in theory claim for 80% of childcare costs, whether in fact they even needed childcare in order to work.

By only the DH working he pays much much more tax and receives the minimum amount of tax credits available to somebody on that income.

It is absolutely not the case that the taxpayer is paying the woman to stay at home. It simply does not work that way!

I earn a little more money than the DH in the OP. We get about £100 a month in tax credits - I pay about four times more in tax than we get back. That is hardly the taxpayer paying my DH to be a SAHD is it? If he went to work as well our tax credits would go up considerably.

In fact if we both worked and between us earned double what we have now (which is very unlikely to happen), we would still get around £60 a month in CTC. Both of us working full time for double the money and we cost the taxpayer about £40 less a month (which is completely the wrong way to look at it as we'd be paying shedloads more tax). Wow, a truly massive difference - clearly a massive incentive for DH to sit on his arse all day at home (looking after a toddler).

A couple where both work and they have children, is now £1,585 a year worse off than they would have been in 1997, before the tax credits were introduced and the benefits system was changed, according to this article

The current system of tax credits / benefits- is too complicated, and it would be better if working families could earn enough to support themselves without state hand outs, but we live in an expensive country and the welfare of children matters. I certainly don't begrudge a family taking home £1000 a month some extra financial help - it isn't much to live on wherever you live in the UK. If the government had managed the cost of housing rather than letting it spiral out of control, I don't think families would need all this extra help.

To the OP, who says
"Shouldnt we be responsible for bringing enough money in to the home for our children?"

Yes I agree with the sentiment that people should take responsibility for providing for their families to the best of their ability, but the reality of life today in the UK is that many couples would never be able to bring in 'enough' to support a family however hard they worked. To deny them a family seems cruel to me.

even without tax credits, we managed ok, with the 3 of us (one hungry baby to pot) and never went without, even if that did mean beans on toast for us adults

gaelicsheep im not a high earner at all, if i was to go into a job now, it would be low level retail or office work. when i worked before i earned about 750 full time pcm. so not an awful lot but ok...

my husband pays tax and i did when i was working, we're getting a bit of that back now, when we need it. i think thats actually really good.

Yes it would be amazing if we didn't -need- to get money from benefits/credits but i am grateful for them.

Heaven forbid that mums (read 'dads' where applicable) might actually be the best people to bring up their own children!

In your world, then, rich mums get to choose to stay at home and give their children a good start in life, while poorer mums must go out to work and farm their children off to a mursery or childminder?? Not exactly a civilised society, that.

YABU.

And that's without getting into the whole 'would like to work but can't afford childcare' issue - should those people just give up on having a family entirely?

YAB totally U.

I don't see why anyone has to justify why they are SAHMs on this thread & it is making me angry that some feel they have to!

"I cant 'understand' that if your husband cant support you both that you dont have to go out to work yourself"

When I lived in the UK I was a SAHM who was entitled to CTC. Has nothing to do with dh not being able to support us. He was able to, but with CTC it was a little easier to make ends meet.

I did work for 2 months after dd was born & spent all my wages on childcare & travelling. So I actually had NIL disposable income each month. So we took the decision for me to leave my job. Things were better because I wasn't working 4 days a week for nothing!

I really don't think it is any of your business what people earn & what they are entitled to & shame on you for making WWW feel bad! How dare you start a thread questioning her incomings?

You have a family income of over 50k and you think you're not well off?

I dont think people in this category are POOR, but neither are they rich!!! To have a a lifetsyle that could be termed as affluent I think you need an household income of at least £100K, if not more

anyway, probably pointless. and if you survice on £25K, annoying

But £50K is not bling bling IMO

Sheesh, OP - you're out there complaining about your taxes going on credits helping families, and here I am feeling irate about my taxes funding polishing the Queen's tiara.

Some people just have totally different mindsets to your own, you know?

I'll make this snappy cause i've got so much to do today, spent too long doing this yesterday!

Firstly, how is what taxes are spent on not my business? If its not my business I wont bother to vote then hey. I pay it, I have a right to ask questions about what the Government decide to spend it on no? Just like everyone else.
Secondly, runnybottom (singling you out because you seem to be the most prolific on here, apologies) Although most of us try to understand other peoples viewpoints and are sympathetic to other people's situations, You seem to not be making any effort in that area at all. So I'm supposed to have 100% respect for everyone who is hard up and nto ever complain about my own life because I should just shut up and be greatful? Every ones got problems. Just because I have more money than you doesnt mean I dont worry about money. Ive been on the bones of my ar$e at times in my life and at other times I've been able to afford 3 foreign holidays in a year.. I can appreciate both sides.
Thirdly, to the person who said she cant understand why people dont do their own research... umm isnt the idea of this whole website that you can come on and ask mums questions, do research in to aspects of family life that affect mums, get support, find out about other mum's opinions blah blah blah.. someone on beauty and style asked me yesterday where she could buy a Chanel foundation. ill just pop back over and tell her to google it shall i?

oh, and.. can I add, those of you who said UABU and then explained why they felt that way, that's kind of what I thought I'd get, and thats great because it helps me understand so much better so thanks.
Some of you just take it way to far though.! Mentioning no names.. runnybum.

And as for the comments about working mums, kids better off with their mothers, dumping your children, outsourcing child care blahblah blah SAHM bingo anyone?

Jenbot.. umm, yes. I know. Thats why I asked for opinions.

I think you might need some vinegar for that enormous chip on your shoulder.

My DP works, he brings home £200 a week ATM.
I worked last year but am now a SAHM.

We get tax credits of £500 per month. It goes on previous years income... I think? And because we claim as a couple, onlt one of us needs to be working to be eligible for working tax credit.

Have just seen this has moved on somewhat

Yes foureleven, I was only joking.
I'm not really getting irate about anything here, I was just trying to indicate that there are probably better things to get yourself het up about in the world. Even the world of taxes.

You know, I get the impression you have lots of wrinkles from frowning all the time.

foureleven - count your blessings.

We have a very good joint income in theory, and certainly aren't entitled to any form of credits, but it all seems to disappear - helping out eldest dd with University costs (we earn too much for her to qualify for the whole maintenance loan) running two cars (because we both work and have lengthy commutes) mortgage, council tax (£200 a month anyone!)....

BUT I am aware that in long term thinking DH and I are far better off than many. As I said before, earning a good income means a lot more than just the money in your pocket - it's long term security, pension, it gives you choices, whereas tax credits literally just provide you with the necessary top up to enable you to eat, keep a roof over your head etc.

I think you need to look at the bigger picture