Going private doesn't 'help' the NHS or state education??

[tryingtobemarrypoppins2]

I really don't know if it is BU to think this! Came up in a rather heated conversation over a meal out with pals last night.....

My thought was "thats a mad suggestion and private anything is unfair on those that can't efford it" but on listening to others soon realised I had no idea at all! Slightly out of my depth!

Perhaps this should be AIBU to vote when I don't know much about politics!

But Portofino, the highest earners here have a 50% tax rate, plus NI, etc. And we have nothing like those services you are describing. If we had those services, I would be quite happy with such a tax rate. But here you know it will be swallowed in middle management and waste.

I really cannot be arsed to read the whole thread (have skimmed read) BUT if there were NO privately educated children and IF everyone had the same education (whether it were poor or fantastically marvellous) THEN only the top 2% of that said education would be deeemed V.G instead of those whose parents can pay would be deemed v clever, on account of school having got shot of any dstruptive pupils, special needs etc etc, and those whose parents can't pay and have to go to crap normal comprehensives are deemed not good enough.

The whole education system here stinks. It is ridiculous that a child's entitlement to a decent education should depend on a parents ability to pay.

And before ANYONE says I am 'jealous', my DCs all have/had excellent state education and are at top universities/schools (same as Xenia's actually). I am just aware that I am v.v. lucky. It doesn't stop me feeling sorry for anyone else who isn't in my position.

If education was the same for everyone it would be a lot fairer system. But while it depends on if you come from the 'I am alright Jack' mentality, it is never going to change. Shame on those of you who do not care about the 'have nots' in this society.

But it's not good enough for the theoretical same education to be "poor or fantastically marvellous". Because if everyone had a poor education, the top 2% would be poor, the country poor and sinking and public services with it. It would only work if you didn't dilute the quality, but how could that possibly happen? Look at the abolition of grammar schools - hundreds of schools, critical to social mobility, destroyed with one fell swoop - and replaced by something totally inferior, albeit "fairer".

OK then, EVERYONE has a fantasically marvellous education. How about that???

That's everyone, not just those who can pay.

There are always going to be children who are less bright than others, who are never going to achieve highly.

But at the moment, those who are not so bright but who can pay for their education are getting higher grades at A level and thus the places at top universities, whereas a child of the same intelligence at a crap comp is not.

Obviously that is why people pay, but it it is so unfair and wrong.

Of course it is, fundamentally. But fixing it is another point entirely.
And that was exactly my point - you are never going to have a uniform system of fantastically marvellous education. It would be wonderful, but it is not going to happen. At least under the old system, poorer families got a chance of free access to the best. But in the name of making everyone equal, they dumbed it all down so that excellence became an unusual thing rather than one in every town. And that's what would happen if you abolished the private schools. The top 2% would be the top 2% of crap and everything would fall down from there.

vanity, my point is that I was/am NOT a higher rate tax payer in the Uk.. In Belgium I pay a much higher rate of income tax than I would in the UK. It came as a big shock to me in fact. But it has to be said, that here healthcare and education are better.

And wrap round school care is provided cheaply and general childcare is means tested and tax deductible. As a PARENT, I thought it was fantastic when we moved. But as I said, I'm not sure how the system works if you are NOT working.

The top 2% of intelligence would STILL be the top 2% regardless of abolishing private schools!!

Intelligence has absolutely nothing to do with which school one attends!

I agree with you to a point ll, but when it comes to getting those all important qualifications, the school DOES come into it.

Violethill - In belgium 40% tax starts at 11240 and 50% at 34330 (euros). So if you want belgian services everyone needs to pay a lot more tax.

Eh? Why are you telling me that?

ooojimaflip, I never realised that 40% started so low!

I think it was Vanity that was questioning it!

I have worked for the NHS in the past, and have seen the difference in service between NHS & private medicine. I now choose to pay for private medical insurance out of my disposable income. Others might choose to spend the money on a holiday in Benidorm. All of this debate is about choice.

loungelizard, the point is that if you water everything down to the level of a bog standard comp, even the brightest 2% (no matter what background) will not get the education they deserve.

yes there are some great state secondary schools (sadly not where I live), but they are the exception. Abolishing private schools will not bring the bad schools up to the level of the good, it will bring everything down to the bad. And no matter how intelligent the pupils,they need good teaching and decent resources to learn. And spreading the existing resources more thinly will not provide this.

The system here is not perfect by any means, but at least you don't have to rely on the LEA. You apply yourself to the schools of your choice. They change the rules frequently though and queuing for kindergarten places in the top primaries is not unheard of....

"Abolishing private schools will not bring the bad schools up to the level of the good, it will bring everything down to the bad."

I don't agree with this.

I am not suggesting everything is 'watered down' to the level of a bog standard comp (your words, not mine). Why should they be???

I am suggesting that every schools education standard is at a decent level (i.e on a par with a private education, thus negating the need to pay for those more discerning...).

What's wrong with that??

Then those who can't pay get the same education as those who can, and only the most genuinely intelligent get to go to the top universities. What's the problem with that??

I agree with you ll on the last point. I was going to respond more fully to vanitypear's post (in my own time as I thought everyone had gone to bed ;-))

So my thought is at Primary level, everyone goes to the nearest school. We need to change the system so that there is NO 11+ thing, more of a 14+ (ie when you choose your options) that there is THEN an academic track vs a vocational track. Both sets leave at 18 with relevant qualifications. Some should go to Uni, some should seek further FE qualifications, some should look for work.

Porto - that's the French system you are describing - same school for all until 15. The system is a total shambles!

I still don't understand how exactly these "rich" people are going to fix the problems with all state education and NHS provision.

Even if you use your time/money to help with the local state primary/secondary you're still only helping the one school that your children go to. Doesn't this make things less fair for the children who don't go to that school? Isn't that why there are "good" comps in areas of affluence where there are parents who can afford to sub the local school for IWBs, trips and other extras? It becomes a cycle once the house prices near the school go up.

Is it really true that more money (for the school) actually makes it better?

Maybe they should ban PTAs from raising money for one school? Any money raised should be given to the LEA or central government for them to decide where to allocate it? No?

ISNT (I think - sorry if I've got this confused) - at one point you've got Lady Buggerlugs going private and you say that things would be better for everyone if she used the NHS and complained in order to make it better. What can she really do about it, other than complain, which we could all do? It's not like she can personally train some new surgeons. Then you've got Lord Bongle in the NHS but somehow he's managed to get himself up the waiting list and get the best consultants and treatment. Surely this shows that these "rich" people will just have the sharpest elbows to get the best outcomes for themselves and nobody else?

The state system is full of inequalities. There are comps and "good" state primaries in rich areas. The middleclass parents put their all into them. We already have that system - schooling by house price. If you want to fix that issue which is a much bigger difference than the 7% at private schools, then go and fix that one first. You fix it by compulsoriliy bussing children from my local comp 34% GCSE A - C to Watford Grammar and the Bucks grammars and you bus the Watford grammar (which is not a grammar by the way it's a comp) and the bucks children round to here. That woudl be huge fun and much fairer and Brighton does it but not popular with those who pretend they aer left wing and right on by using the state system but all they've done is spend £600k on a house in Bucks.

How funny that the person banging on and on about how hardly anyone in this country has private births turns out to have had private births

violethill I assumed quattro was talking about things like cleanliness, midwives who actually stay with you, decent aftercare, things which are often lacking on the NHS. i do not understand why you jumped down her throat like that.

cokefan, one post was in response to someone saying what happens when the rich and powerful have to have something done that is not available private (I am not sure there is anything but still). I said that at the moment they get referred to a top london hosp and get the best treatment from all and sundry.

my second point was what would happen if the rich and powerful had to go to their local NHS hosp for everything. Which is that the local NHS hosp would suddenly improve.

Although in practice you'd end up with all the good docs and facilities concentrated in knightsbridge (much as at the moment then!).

I am amazed that anyone thinks that the posh and powerful slum it with teh rest of us if they have to go into hospital. I mean really, come on.