Going private doesn't 'help' the NHS or state education??

[tryingtobemarrypoppins2]

I really don't know if it is BU to think this! Came up in a rather heated conversation over a meal out with pals last night.....

My thought was "thats a mad suggestion and private anything is unfair on those that can't efford it" but on listening to others soon realised I had no idea at all! Slightly out of my depth!

Perhaps this should be AIBU to vote when I don't know much about politics!

I think that having an income does automatically cut out all of the children with parent/s who are in prison/totally chaotic/spend all their time off their heads.

It is fair to say that people who are in work are on the whole, and on average, more likely to be "together" types, surely, who will make sure their children get up for school and so on.

There is also a cash side - I saw the other day that a local primary school raises in excess of £10K a year, and there are only 100 children. That's £100 per family (more for those with siblings). That is a lot of money - I am sure that richer parents will happily do that thing of just buying all the raffle tickets themselves rather than trying to flog them, and stuff like that. Then you get the facilities and so on.

I suppose I picked up on that when Shiny mentioned it Oblamov, because it seems there are three tiers of people whose entitlement gets argued in these debates and those people are seen as following:

1. The permanent "dole scroungers" who help themselves to the free services.

1. The hard-working, contributing people who can't afford private schooling or hospitals and who don't take benefits either, but struggle.

1. The well off who "could/should" pay to go private instead of taking up room in NHS hospitals / state schools.

mrsc you want the system to be that if you do not use a service you do not pay for that service at all from your taxes?

I just dont get the attitude:

I work hard for my money and don't want to pay any more taxes for better schools. Instead I'll pay for private schools just for my children.

Well, why not just pay more taxes for better schools? If everyone who could afford it did then everyone would benefit.

if those people who could afford it, were made by custy decree to suffer the NHS and state school system. by jove, i bet a lot of influence would be done to improve both systems.

To reiterate in my previous post - of course not everyone who is not in work is like that - but there will be more people not in work who are like that than in work. As if you are a total disaster area then you don't tend to keep jobs for long.

I agree that you can be a parent on a low income and be interested in your child's education.

But if you are someone who can't read, or you have never had anyone in living memory work in your immediate family for example you are not going to be able to be particularly involved in your child's education, even if you wanted to.

It is not just the rich who privately educate, I know plenty of people on middle incomes who stretch themselves to pay school fees.

My dd school is going through a very difficult time and I know some parents are taking their children out because of it. It is a school that has a very mixed intake, their are many children in dds class whose parents clearly have no interest in the education of their children. If I withdraw my child and send her to a private school ( as my family are begging me to do and offering to foot the bill) it will mean one less involved parents who has the level of knowledge, confidence and education to challenge a school who are letting their children down.

Also it's not straightforward as going private all the time or not at all.

I once had a private op. I re-mortgaged to do it, and made damned sure it was in an NHS hospital because I wouldn't want to be in a private hospital if anything went wrong, as they're not set up to deal with emergencies in the same way.

So in the end it was a surgeon/theatre/bed which otherwise would have been being used by an NHS patient. Apart from lining the consultant's pocket, I'm not sure how I helped anyone by not going NHS? To do so would have been to go to a completely private hospital thus putting myself in possibly more danger? It's never black and white.

SMaCK because that would remove the privilege that the rich enjoy so they'd never have that, would they.

No matter how much lip service they pay it why one earth would they want a society like that if it meant that clever little johnny from the council estate could get a good education and get the job earmarked for nice but dim charles from snobbo school IYSWIM.

twinset says it better. i am getting a bit bogged down

I agree custy, I teach in a school which has a quite vocal supposedly middle class intake. Quite rightly if we are not giving the children the best education they are on the phone straight away.

By contrast in my previous school I could have spent the day watching Deal or No Deal and many of the parents would not have known or cared. Bad teachers and lazy practice flourish in this kind of school and these are the kind of kids who need good schools the most.

I don't think healthcare and education are the same though.

Firstly i'll admit - i have private healthcare (through work) but will never be able to avoid private education - so i might be a little biased . But i don't like the idea of segregating education - i think its good for children to be educated in a school where there are rich kids, poor kids, and different races. Obviously not always do-able, but i don't think taking rich kids off to private schools (or clever kids off to grammar schools for that matter)is overly helpful.

Wheras i can't see how having no rich people using the NHS would be a problem.

if they had to use it pootles - it would change - all the people with the money influence and power would change it

It makes a difference pootles because people like me opt out of the state healthcare because it is inadaquate or does not even exist. So rather than make a fuss about it we pay for private healthcare because we can afford to. Society then just carries on ignorant of the failings of the state system so nothing gets done. In my case the people who can't afford to pay are likely to simply die. Therefore IMO it is a problem.

I was quite chirpy this morning , I feel quite crap now.

Yes. I don't think you'd be seeing mixed sex wards and people left in their own urine if Lady Buggerlugs was liable to be one of the patients.

Having said that I do think that both the NHS and the schools are on the whole v good in this country, i think we are very lucky.

Actually in that sense we're not lucky, we pay for these services, and as a society have a commitment to the ideas of free healthcare for all and a welfare state. That is tremendous.

I've got an average income, no influence and no power.

Who are these powerful, influential people?

Surely they make up a tiny minority of the population.

Well - you do have a vote. Thats something at least. I guess you can always kick up a fuss to local mp as well? May not sound much, but I guess its something...

I am certainly influential at my dd school and I am just a normal working class woman who works as a teacher. My dp has also been very influential there and he has no education background.

After recovering and feeling very guilty about the fact I had used private healthcare I did some work to improve a mental health provision locally and nationally. I know I made a difference in a small way.

I think many of us are more influential than we give ourselves credit for.

OK.

Say my DD went to school and said that there were no books, or pens or paper. And that school lunch every day was chips and slop.

Would I do something? Damn right I would. because I would want to improve the environment for my child. I would be banging on the door, talking to the other parents, taking about raising funds, writing to my MP. Of course.

People move heaven and earth for education - moving house, going to church, you name it. These are people who are highly invested in their childrens education. And if they were all creamed off into the private sector they would not be there to make a fuss. As it is they are all creamed into the same schools in teh same areas but it would be worse much much worse.

I may be a bit out of touch with reality. But generally all the schools round us are excellent. Not a bad one among them. And health wise, apart from petty grumbles thta we all have of waiting lists to see specialists, or narky receptionists, repeat prescriptions, ( we live very close to a great A&E hospital, with good specialists)
apart from that,
no one I know has any complaints about schools or NHS services.

I have complaints about the NHS and quite a few about schools. I don't see how me abandoning the system is going to help.

Yep, - so to keep the priviledge, ISNT pay half of the school fees in taxes, and the rest on a elite school place. You get both then

Oblomov - my situation is very similar to yours. Live in lovely area, all schools fab, hospitals have always been great. However the thing of waiting lists to see specialists - when you've got a serious condition this isn't a petty grumble. My dad had what was thought to be a tumour a year or so ago, his gp said the list was so long he would be crazy not to go private. Thankfully he could afford this. What happens to the guy who can't?

Alright so I can see how the NHS and state funded schools would improve if all private care and schooling was stopped. However this, unfortunately, is never going to happen.

So as it is now with only the very few, ultra rich using all private, then are they are still helping relieve the burden on the NHS and state funded schooling?