To struggle to forget this

[ElementOfFreedom]

When I was pregnant we visited my MIL, whom I do not always get along with. Please note I do have a history of OCD tendencies so try not to be too harsh if you think I am overreacting. She prepared a meal for us, which I was helping to prepare, and I observed her touching raw chicken, barely rinsing her hands, touching the packaging, then preparing salad. I actually asked her to wash her hands, what with me being pregnant and all, and she said "no" she wouldn't. I ate some of the meal in order to keep the peace, then regretted it, although in the end I was fine. AIBU to still feel bothered by the fact she was so rude/inconsiderate, and AIBU to not want my DS to eat at her house?

Spero - your cat on the the food surfaces - also minging.

I assume you let it out so it could be walking around in all kinds of pooh. Or is it an indoor cat that stands in a litter tray? I can understand you not being able to stop it going up but at least clean the surfaces.

You wouldn't put a pair of outdoor shoes on the work surface and then prepare food without cleaning it would you?

And raw chicken is the biggest cause of salmonella poisoning, and I can assure that salmonella isn't something that has no evidence base.

"I can't stop thinking about if I had got ill, would it have had any effect on my pregnancy? Does anyone know, or would it just have made me a bit sick for a few days?"

but you didn't get ill, asking this question when you aren't even pregnant anymore is silly. I really think you've lost perspective on this

flameproof if she's worried about her son eating food, I'm assuming he's at least a few months old, but clearly I could be wrong

YANBU

My MIL has similar habits ie never washing fruit, all food is out of date etc.
Not washing your hands properly after handling raw meat is just stupid, and in your case, inconsiderate.
At the same time, you have to let it go, but I understand it's not easy. I'm forever after DP to use separate chopping boards for meat and stuff we will eat raw.

Spero, it doesn't matter whether chicken has just been taken t of its packaging or not. Wrapping the chicken in a bit of plastic at the factory will not make it sterile and kill the bacteria that was on it BEFORE.

When I asked her I even tried to make it about me - i.e. sorry you know what I'm like, but would you mind washing your hands just to put my mind at rest...

I feel guilty for having eaten it, I feel I should have stood up to her, and I can;t stop thinking about the 'what ifs', but my DH has a difficult relationship with her at best and at the time I didn't want to make things harder for him.

ilovepiccolina - I've just checked on the Food Standards Website and it particularly advises AGAINST washing raw meat because you run the risk of splashing germs about.

But ten minutes of concentrated googling has shed no light on risk of salmonella poisoning in domestic kitchens.

Oh I see, her son is the DC she was pregnant with at the time this happened?

I was assuming she's pregnant now and the DS is her first child.

"So a bit of dripping from a raw chicken is going to make you very ill? But how? Am I being dense? What is so dangerous about the raw chicken, if you have only just taken it out of the packaging?"

It's only dangerous if it is infected with salmonella bacteria, which is a risk with chicken.

You may have strong constitutions and you've also been lucky.

Raw chicken
Now that you're pregnant, it's even more important to avoid eating raw chicken, or even coming in contact with the surfaces that have been touched by raw chicken, as it can transmit Salmonella. The result can be a serious, albeit treatable, diarrheal disease. Diarrhea with its resultant dehydration is particularly dangerous when you are pregnant, although the Salmonelladoes not infect the fetus.

YANBU and I would feel the same

I grew up in a catering environment and YOU DO NOT FECK WITH CHICKEN

flameproof - yes, I know where my cat has been. Hence I bat her off work surfaces when she jumps up.

But wasn't there a thread a while back about someone who used to wash her bag before putting it on the kitchen table?

The title of this thread really says it all for me. This isn't something you should 'struggle' to forget. Its not like the MIL stamped on a kitten in front of her.

Unless and until someone can point me towards some reliable evidence that I am putting my health seriously at risk in my kitchen, I'm going to take the empirical evidence of the last twenty years and consider that you lot are ever so slightly OTT.

Spero - I know. There are two schools of thought. One is to wash, one not to. He belongs to the former, which unfortunately means wiping the sink & surround after (can't be faffed). So I don't, but he thinks I do

It's very important to keep raw poultry away from food that is ready to eat. This is because if raw poultry, or other raw meat, touches (or drips onto) these foods, bacteria will spread.

Remember, bacteria can also spread from raw meat and poultry to worktops, chopping boards, dishes and utensils. So, to keep your Christmas food safe, remember to do the following things:

?Always wash your hands with warm water and soap, and dry them thoroughly, after touching raw poultry.
?Don't wash your turkey (or other poultry) ? this is because bacteria can splash onto worktops, dishes and other foods. Proper cooking will kill any bacteria, so you don't need to wash poultry.
?Always clean worktops, chopping boards, dishes and utensils thoroughly after they have touched raw poultry.
?Never use the same chopping board for raw poultry and ready-to-eat food without washing it thoroughly in warm soapy water. (If possible, use a separate chopping board just for raw meat and poultry).
When you are storing raw meat, to help stop bugs spreading you should remember to:

?Always keep raw poultry away from other foods.
?Store raw poultry at the bottom of the fridge so it can't drip onto other foods.
This advice applies to poultry such as turkey, chicken, duck and goose, and game such as partridge and pheasant.

Still got a question about preparing your Christmas dinner? Send it to [email protected]
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Cooking poultry

It's very important to plan your cooking time in advance, to make sure you get the bird in the oven early enough to cook it thoroughly. A large turkey can take several hours to cook properly.

How to check your bird is cooked
These cooking guidelines are only estimates; always check that the bird is properly cooked before serving, because eating undercooked turkey (or other poultry) could cause food poisoning.

These are the three main ways to tell if poultry is cooked:

?the meat should be steaming hot all the way through
?when you cut into the thickest part of the meat, none of the meat should be pink
?if juices run out when you pierce the turkey, or when you press the thigh, they should be clear

How long to cook
These cooking times are based on an unstuffed bird. It's better to cook your stuffing in a separate roasting tin, rather than inside the bird, so it will cook more easily and cooking guidelines will be more accurate. (If you cook your bird with the stuffing inside, you will need to allow extra time for the amount of stuffing and allow for the fact that it cooks more slowly.)

Remember some ovens, such as fan-assisted ovens, might cook the bird more quickly ? check the manufacturer's handbook for your oven if you can. Always check that the meat is cooked thorougly before serving.

As a general guide, in an oven preheated to 180ºC (350ºF, Gas Mark 4):

?for a turkey under 4.5kg, allow 45 minutes per kg plus 20 minutes
?for a turkey weighing between 4.5kg and 6.5kg, allow 40 minutes per kg
?for a turkey over 6.5kg, allow 35 minutes per kg
Tip: Cover your turkey with foil during cooking and uncover for the last 30 minutes to brown the skin. To stop the meat drying out, baste it every hour during cooking.

Cooking times for other birds
Other birds, such as goose and duck, need different cooking times and temperatures. The oven should always be hotter for duck and goose to melt the fat under the skin.

Goose should be cooked in a preheated oven at 220ºC/425ºF/Gas Mark 7 for 35 minutes per kg.

Tip: Pierce the skin before cooking to help drain the fat and pour away any excess fat halfway through cooking.

Duck should be cooked in a preheated oven for 45 minutes per kg at 200ºC/400ºF/Gas Mark 6.

Tip: Pierce the skin before cooking and drain off the excess fat halfway through cooking.

Chicken should be cooked in a preheated oven at 180ºC/350ºF/Gas Mark 4 for 45 minutes per kg plus 20 minutes.

Tip: Cover your chicken with foil during cooking and uncover for the last 30 minutes to brown the skin. To stop the meat drying out, baste it every 30 minutes during cooking.

Poultry cooking guide
You can use our handy guide to cooking your poultry to work out cooking times, but remember these are only estimates and you should always check that the bird is properly cooked before serving. Use the pointers above to find out how.

Cooking guideTurkeyChickenGooseDuckkgs lbs oz It will take approximately:
hoursmins

Remember, some ovens, such as fan assisted ovens, might cook the poultry more quickly. Follow the pointers in the 'How to check your bird is cooked' section above, to decide when it's done.

Still got a question on cooking your turkey? Send it to [email protected]
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Leftovers

It's very important to keep cooked meat and poultry in the fridge. If they are left out at room temperature, food poisoning bacteria can grow and multiply. So, after you have carved your turkey (or other bird), cool any leftovers as quickly as possible (within one to two hours), cover them and put them in the fridge.

When you're serving cold turkey, try to take out only as much as you're going to use and leave the rest in the fridge. Don't leave a plate of turkey or cold meats out all day, on a buffet for example. Put it back in the fridge as soon as you can, ideally within an hour.

If you're reheating leftover turkey, or other food, always make sure it's steaming hot all the way through before you eat it. And don't reheat more than once. Ideally, try to use leftovers within 48 hours.

Still got a question about how to keep your leftovers safe? Send it to [email protected]
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Spero - your cat is far less likely to give you an illness than raw chicken.

Salmonella bacteria is found on only about 8% of chickens, however campylobacter is on 71%.

A complication of campylobacter is Guillain-Barre syndrome.

Both salmonella and campylobacter are linked to fetal death and neonatal infection.

OP -YANBU and I wouldn't eat there ever again.

I actually feel ill. You don't clean the surfaces that your cats paws have been on before you prepare food on them?

Grim.

Yes I really am that crazy - it was months ago when i was pregnant with DS (now 4 months) - btw I know he won't be eating there for a while yet, I just through I'd throw that question in whilst I'm getting feedback on this issue. Really I'd like to tell her that I don't want to eat from her gross kitchen again, never mind my DS, I just don't want to be overreacting or make things hard for DH. Btw if this was the only issue I had with her my attitude may be different.

I totally understand about the chicken, but actually if this was some time in the past, I am more concerned about why this still worries you OP? How old is your dc?

"I feel guilty for having eaten it"

EoF - that is OCD talking. You ate it, you were fine. Getting worked up about "what ifs" about a salad you once ate is really getting the importance of this out of proportion.

She should have listened to you. You are right about the hygiene procedures she should have followed. But it doesn't matter now.

I am a huge subscriber to the hygiene hypothesis, not much of a housekeeper at all, the cats jump on the worksurface all the time ... but! I would not handle a salad or anything else that was going to be eaten raw after handling raw chicken. Quite aside from the invisible bacteria etc, you could get a little fragment of raw chicken on your cucumber, which would be gross even if it weren't dangerous. And if food is going straight on the surfaces, rather than on a board, the surfaces get washed and the cats watched ... As to rinsing hands, it's not worth the bother - got to be soap if you actually want to get something serious off.

That said, I would file under loopy MiL rather than dwell on it. As to the OP letting her son eat round there - if you need to, just keep an eye on her. If she does that sort of thing again, DS eats the chicken but not the salad. My in-laws do these buffet lunch things which involve getting the Iceland party food (yes, the sodding prawn ring et al) out of the freezer and leaving it for much MUCH longer than it needs to defrost, then letting everyone help themselves. Even if DD wasn't the fussiest creature known to mankind, she wouldn't be eating those prawns, I can assure you.

I don't think the poster on the previous thread said anythign about washing her handbag. The thread was about putting handbag on the floor in public places (loos, restaurants, work)& then going home & putting it on the work surface.

If we agree that we make sure the work surface is washed down frequently, separate chopping boards for meat & non-meat, & wash our hands a lot,........ can we go to bed now???

To clarify my last post - campylobacter is a source of gastro-enteritis (food poisoning). Guillain-Barre syndrome is a subsequent complication of gastric disease caused by campylobacter.
Also see Reiter?s syndrome for another complication of gastro-enteritis.

www.wales.nhs.uk/sites3/Documents/457/Baseline%20Rates%20of%20Campylobacter%20and%20Salmonella%20in. pdf

www.patient.co.uk/doctor/Gastrointestinal-Infections-in-Pregnancy.htm

To be honest I think the reasons it still bother me are: 1. My OCD-ness 2. My MIL's selfishness generally 3. The fact I have never had a go at her about it = pent up anger (would it be really crazy to bring it up now - I have only seen her twice since this but she is moving closer to us) 4. I feel guilty that I should have been stronger in the first place, feel like I let my DS down.

And yes I know I must sound bloody mad now.

Spero - when handling raw meat, especially chicken, as it is most likely to harbour bacteria, one must wash one's hands thoroughly with some sort of cleaning agent (not just water). This is the base level of food hygiene worldwide and has been for decades - if not longer, as my Great-Grandmother taught food hygiene classes (including, yes, washing hands after touching meat) to new wives during WW1. I can't believe adults actually don't know this, or, more importantly, that it doesn't occur to them.

Although sadly I can believe it as my MIL never washes her hands when cooking - I actually vomited last year after seeing her handle raw chicken with a blackened plaster oozing pus on her index finger and then using the same hands to toss the salad. This was after she had told me off for throwing used foil away as she keeps all hers in a drawer to reuse (which she then showed me - minging pieces of stinking, rank foil with congealed fat rotting away on them. ILs are v rich as well, so it's not like they need to cut corners!). Being at their house is the one time I'm glad I have food allergies as I can prepare nearly every meal for myself!

A lot of people have the attitude that food hygiene is just silly 'nanny state' nonsense and they've never got ill from being a skank, so there's their proof, but this is a really immature and dangerous way of thinking - and poor hygiene and poor intelligence when thinking about hygiene really doesn't say very good things about the personal standards they have as a person. If people have poor standards for themselves then that's their look-out, but they shouldn't think it's acceptable to risk other people's health. Sadly, MIL just laughs like you're being a freak if you make nicely-worded suggestions about hygiene (those sausages you defrosted 6 days ago and haven't even refridgerated probably aren't fit for human consumption anymore, dear) and it sounds like your MIL is sadly one of those 'can't be told' types, OP. Oh yeah, and there's nothing OCD to expect basic hygiene and common sense from another adult, so don't beat yourself up about that. But it is incredibly hard to confront someone who you need to have a good relationship with without sounding like you're just saying 'I know better than you so stop being such a filthy pig, you ignorant bitch' - you have my sympathy

is it just me or has someone else noticed the SPERO is most definately on the wind up?

its not just salmonella on chicken there is aslo listeria. my brother ate undercooked chicken at a family party and ended up in hospital so am now fanatical about raw and cooked chicken having seperate chopping boards and all knives used to carve are boiled in hot pan of salt water and then washed.

Scorpette have you thought of only meeting your MIL in restaurants in the future?

Seriously, why does Mumsnet not have Boak emoticon?

Thank you Scorpette, I couldn't have put it better myself.

And I think Spero is actually my MIL in disguise.