To expect medical students to know the basics?

[JuneWalker]

About this time of year for several years I have acted as a "guinea pig" for medical students working on their practical skills.

Its quite an experience (for both parties) when they insert a speculum in a real patient for the first time. In the past although there have been one or two minor issues the nurse who was there 100% of the time always intervened in time.

This year there was 1 nurse for every 2 patients and Mr NHS manageer - IT DOESN'T WORK!!!

Female students have always been fine but some of the men were hopeless. I had a very sensitive part crushed by a thumb, I had one lad (looked about 12) trying to remove the speculum with the blades open and one who didn't seem to know where to put at all.

I did my 15 students but complained at the end. Got totally blanked by the doctor in charge.

Surely when they are doing something like this for the first time there should be 100% supervision???

The only good point was that this year we didn't use the dreaded stirrups and just put our feet on the examination couch. Much better.

I have no reason to believe that this is false but I am puzzled by this statement

"The only reason I posted is that this year the degree of supervision was reduced from all previous years. I had sort of hoped that somebody would be able to tell me why."

Surely the best person to address your concerns re the organisation of this years volunteer set up is the person in charge of co-ordinating it not a bunch of people on a parenting website ?

Doh forgot link

GTAs

I'm surprised anyone is doubting the OP

this is the least sexy thread I've ever read on mumsnet - you'd get more orgasms over the style and beauty section than this little gem.

This would be a serious niche fetish

Well I am an NHS manager and I find this hard to believe. I have also taken my daughter along to be an 'patient' for students and we were seen by 3 in the morning and then 3 in the afternoon. Not 15.
I also work with a number of doctors who teach students and the chances of them 'blanking' this kind of complaint would be zero basically.
Nice try though - I read the whole thing clenched.

If, for the sake of example, I said X or Y or Z medical school Sassy would unquestionably "claim" to have close links with X or Y or Z.

Which would prove exactly nothing.

I know what I do each year, I know where and why I do it. And frankly I don't care enough to debate if it happens but why it happens.

So why or how questions and comments will be read and pondered and perhaps answered. If questions will not. I cannot say fairer than that.

Sassy - I was told that story by a medical student who'd been in theatre when it happened.

hats off to you
I could never do that

That's very convenient June

BTW - are you enjoying your first voyage on to mumsnet or did you namechange to protect the sanctity of your furry front bottom?

Wuglet - it doesn't exist in the format outlined by the OP - '15' medical students in a queue with an NHS manager in attendance, and an injury caused by a students THUMB ? And stirrups ?

i've seen a really wonderful dummy that simulates childbirth and has different vaginas/cervices so you can feel full dilation, and practice suturing different tears.. really fascinating. it also can be sped up or slowed down and you can watch decent and rotation of the baby.. the 3 minute labour was quite something

the thought of that being available, and some poor soul having 15 students do an internal with a speculum and inadequate supervision is a bit baffling..

That BMJ article states that 11 exams in one day is unusual nevermind 15... It seems to suggest that a figure of around 4 is more usual...

When I was a medical student we usedto do speculum examinations on Anaesthetised gynae patients for practice. HOWEVER we had to consent the patient first and get them to sign the consent in their notes.

The consent process was listed as the most embarrassing part of their medical training by about half my male classmates in our yearbook. It was pretty embarrassing as a female too!! Interesting about 90% of patients agreed, which from the replies on here doesn't make mumsnet representative of the general population!

liath pmsl (and also winceing)

What extraordinary posts. JuneWalker, YANBU and you should complain a lot.

Sassybeast, I had certainly heard of the scandal of practice internals done without consent. A quick search on PubMed (my terms were 'anaesthetised' 'examination' confirms this. Attitudes to consent have changed a lot in that period. What job do you work in the NHS? I was a GP's secretary, if it's relevant.

The idea of being examined gynaecologically whiclst 'under' (consenting or otherwise) actually makes me feel quite ill. I'm not surprised that colleagues felt uncomfortable asking the question

FWIW, I have no problem whatsoever with students sitting in on my medical appts and I have consented to students performing exams during training in the past (I was conscious at the time).

whilst not whiclst!

'sniggers'

'point proven'

'weirdo'

'hides thread'

StayingDTs girl - serious ethical/professional/legal issues there issues there if that's true - am assuming it was a few years ago when the arrogance of medical consultants knew no bounds!

As an SHO (trainee doc) I refused to do an examination under anaesthetic on a patient who had not consented. My gynae consultant (old, male) told me I was being ridiculous and I think thought I was being a bolshy feminist.

what a vile prick.

sorry to lower tone

yes, he was.

my MIL was given a shot of pethidine in labour without having given consent
they had mixed her up with someone else (who i think also hadn't given consent)

Sassy - you are right it was mumblemumblemumble25mumblemumble years ago!

An "NHS manager" would not be present since medical schools sit to one side of the NHS and are not managed by them. Any "manager" present would have been a doctor / lecturer of some sort involved in the training of the students. Most NHS managers are also clinicians, often nurses, who have moved up or sideways into a management position. The hospital where I work has only one manager who is not a current or previous doctor or nurse, with the exception of the Finance Dept. Sorry for the side track, I get a bit bored off this "too many managers, not enough nurses" thing. They're the same people, folks.

Oh God, it's like the farking Toby Carvey advert. "We can't agree on what makes the perfect roast, but we can all agree where to have it."

At the Toby Carvery

The Toby Carvery.

Fuck me.