to think that my DD has a right to a secular education

[Tinnitus]

Two years ago my DD came home to tell EXP and Me about the "true meaning of Christmas". We are both atheists and had purposely sought out a non religious school and so we were perplexed. We took every opportunity to explain that this story was just that, a story, not the literal truth.

Inevitably DD soon started on about the true meaning of Easter and so I made an appointment to see the headmistress of her school. By the time of the appointment I had learned from DD that it was a classroom helper who was feeding her this guff and not a teacher, and I felt a quiet word would suffice.

Imagine my surprise when I discovered that not only was the helper indoctrinating DD, but the local evangelical church held monthly assemblies with the children. Indeed it turns out that every school in the country must be affiliated with a church of some type, but is not obliged to brand themselves thus. The head mistress was courteous and obliging and agreed to my request that the brainwashing of DD stop. I made no demands about her education other than She does not come home spouting twaddle.

Two years on and she is beginning to again to talk about Heaven, Hell, God and the Devil. But she has no idea who Adam and Eve were. When I "tactfully" quizzed her about this I discover a local CofE vicar has been regularly talking to the children about his faith, but without emphasizing that it is only his own opinion. Worse still, He has had my DD praying in class.

I have asked the school to live up to their earlier agreement as calmly as I could.

AIBU

Finally my point about perception is being picked up! As I said earlier I think we would need to see one of these lessons to know whether the children are receiving RI or it's RE and they're getting confused. I remember my sister coming home convinced that we were doing something wrong because we didn't observe Succoth which they'd been learning about at school. The lesson was very much focused on the cultural aspect and what it involved and why and it was apparently made clear to the pupils it was a Jewish festival so not everyone did it. She still didn't understand why we didn't. My brother (Catholic school aged 11) thought Christians fasted for Eid because he heard it at school where he wasn't expecting to hear about Islam. I'm not suprised at all that some children are coming home with slightly muddled views. What I am suprised at is the number of rational people with good evaluation skills (as evidenced by this thread) who seem to be overreacting. Not directed at you Tinnitus because I do think your school were wrong to have the vicar praying and the evangelical assemblies. The difference is in the teaching and the clarity of the views expressed. Don't forget teacher education includes very little RE and if what most teachers are relying on is their own faith and jumbled RE education I'm not suprised the teaching is so appallingly opaque.

In fact I think people in general still have a lot of misconceptions, not just teachers. It can be small things, like only Catholics can take communion in a Cathloic church or belief in reincarnation is incompatible with Christianity, or big things, like every religion is out to convert people to their way of thinking (definitely not the case with Judaism) and the Koran encourages Muslims to kill the infidel .

I also don't know why the prayers aren't non-specific in schools? Surely you can avoid saying Dear God or Amen, or any other religious marker and make it more if a 'mission statement' (horrible phrase)? That way even if the prayer is of religious origin the sentiment can be shared by all. I can think of several prayers that could well be used this way and have been by secular organisations. But whoever it was that said schools have to do these things, not that you have to take part is spot on. I think it was raven because I remember a CM and a mosque being involved. Anyway their DC is a great example because they are present, learning about it and learning to respect what is going on by following the example of others without necessarily participating.

My opinion is collective time together is not a bad thing and it can include non specific prayers or a religious viewpoint presented educationally such as marking a major religious/cultural occasion. RE teaching needs to be better nor banned. Teaching children about diversity is all well and good but they're going to need a context so when teaching religious diversity religions ate going to have to mentioned in a mainstream factual manner (possibly using 'the majority of pumpkin worshippers believe' to avoid problems) but properly informed teachers. RI has no place in school. People should show consideration for other people's beliefs and observances without forcing their own point of view on others, whatever belief system they belong to, and refrain from heaping insults on people who think differently. If we all did that the world would be a nicer place. Unfortunately the law does not reflect my feelings on collective worship and insists a certain percentage has to be of Christian nature and the law is to be obeyed until it is changed.

That seems a very sensible post frakkinnuts. I think that possibly learning about religions should wait until secondary school (I'm not too sure on that one because there are arguments on both sides). I am much older, so I don't ever recall learning about other faiths at school which is wrong. In a secondary school you could at least get a specialist teacher, with an interest in the subject, who knows what they are talking about.
I have come across them as a teacher and, as an adult, find it a fascinating subject. I think that I might have simply switched off as a child. I certainly dropped RE as soon as I was able. As a teacher I have to teach things that I simply don't understand. Most of it is no problem, all the religions have similarities ,but when it comes to Hindu's I am completely lost. I don't know what the stories are supposed to show (story of Ganesh with the elephant head for example)I have contacted my SIL who has a great interest but am none the wiser. I am still required to teach it. Even a special website for school children has on it 'I hope I haven't caused offence-if I have contact me and I will remove it,which shows that the 'expert' isn't too clear either).

If a 5 yr old comes to school with no experience of any religion, they are bound to be confused (I would say that at that age they would get confused even if they went to Sunday school every week). I have tried to make it interesting e.g. getting a Jewish friend to get me a challah loaf to all try, but I can't say which parts a 6 yr old retains and what gets jumbled with other things. Even little things are confusing-the Jewish friend gave me the correct pronunciation, but I noticed the Head used a different one-did the DCs even know it was the same thing? I wasn't sure enough of my ground to even mention it.

I know that we have come well away from OP, but it has been interesting. There have been such massive misconceptions-obviously picked up from an early age and never corrected-that I am not sure what I think about RE in school any more-except that it needs a massive overhaul.

Sorry about the apostrophes-I notice rather too late that they sprinkle my posts in the wrong places-in a rush I seem to press the key as soon as I need an s!

What about nativity plays and school children singing Christmas carols like "Hark the Herald Angels Sing". These things are part of our culture. Should we jettison them because a minority don't like them? Isn't it reasonable for the minority to respect the culture and traditions of the majority?

I think that they should stay, they are strongly part of the culture of the UK. If I went to live in another country I would keep my own traditions at home, but I would expect my DCs to be part of the local culture if they went to a local school. For example I think that a Christingle service is a lovely experience-our local church has to have tickets for it and does it 3 times-these are people who never go to church normally and I don't see anything wrong in that.
Interestingly no one has mentioned the Scout and Guide movement and the promise 'to do my duty to God and the Queen'-do atheists not let their DCs be rainbows, brownies, beavers etc or are they not aware that they are Christian organisations? You can't escape it in the UK-it is a Christian country and DCs will come against it in some form or other.

exactly piscesmoon. In America there have been court cases taken against schools because the schools had a sign in the classroom saying "In God We Trust". Some of these cases go to the level of the Supreme Court. This level of hatred of God and attempt to change the culture of a country is very often politically motivated. It has very little to do with religion and worries about worship of the Great Pumpkin.

"Not that you're all that interested in MHO, but I think your last post is a good example of your real motive in starting this thread."

Then why would I have waited until now to post it? No, a friend posted it on Facebook and I remember seeing it as a child. my "real motive" is in the OP.

I have no problem with nativity plays and Christmas carols though I suggest the content could vary and include other things of interest.

That's quite different from taking a child and saying "my god is real, he died for you and you must do this and that" Of course if your reason for the play was to get the children alone so that you could do the other things that's another matter.

You want to make us sound petty because we don't want to give you the right to impose your beliefs on our children.

We have to expend so much energy these days to keep people away from our kids who want to use them for their own ends. Why don't you do it to your own kids and leave ours alone.

As for respect. I will normally be polite about what YOU do on a sunday, but in my opinion the basic principles of religion are disgusting and unhealthy and not worthy of respect.

Without religious education our children would not be able to understand much of our culture or history. Our religious faith is deeply entwined with our culture. Henry VIII and the Reformation, Cromwell and the English Civil War would not make sense without an understanding of religion. The founding of the most powerful country on earth was due to people from these islands leaving in search of religious freedom. Many of the greatest works of art hanging in galleries across the world are informed by religious themes. Much of our moral philosophy is based on our Christian faith. The abolition of slavery and many of our human rights have a base in our religious faith. We don't have caste systems in Europe, our faith does not fit with such injustice. Kings and their divine right to rule have been challenged because these concepts are incompatible with our faith. "Love thy neighbour as thyself" and "do unto others as you would have done unto you" have transformed our societies for the good.

But there are people who want to overturn these things, who wish to destroy our culture. These people keep on pushing and insulting us and we keep on letting them. These are the people who want to remove Christmas from the lexicon and replace it with Winterval. These are the people who want to stop nurses wearing crosses, want to stop children sending Christmas cards and don't want to mention the religious meaning of Christmas and Easter.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1214806/Christian-nurse-accuses-hospital-discrimination-removed-fro ntline-duty-wearing-cross-necklace.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-500855/Primary-school-bans-Christmas-cards-claiming-cause-hurt-feel ings.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1232804/Why-Nativity-dirty-word-BBC.html

You won't find these people campaigning against Diwali, it's only Christianity that they hate so much. None of these people are Sikhs, Hindus or Muslims. These people don't care about religion, they are politically motivated. They want to destroy our culture and they think a major part of it is to destroy our religious cultural heritage by removing religious education from our children in schools.

OK claig, we have all been very patient with you but this really is to much. How dare you deny me the right to ferment change in my own culture. I have every right to call it as I see it and your feelings are no reason for me to put up with things I believe are anachronistic.

Also, if I were to make a concise historical summation of the reasons NOT to allow religion to continue I would use; the the Reformation, Cromwell and the English Civil War, the mania of the founding fathers (re Salem et al.)The fact that religion was THE ONLY subject renaissance artist could get a commission for, our Christian based moral philosophy that allowed slavery to start, our feudal based class system borne out of the divine right to rule still enshrined in law with Liz II, and if you are going to love thy neighbor the why did the Pope order Long-shanks in to Scotland (Despite the portrayal by Mel Gibson.)

Sorry but you will have to do better.

I am not denying you the right to do anything. I understand that you think that religion is evil, that's ok, I said earlier then you should do everything you can to avoid any of its evil influences affecting your DD. I am just explaining that there are other factors at work here with the Winterval fanatics. I am not saying that you are part of that. Good luck in your quest to eradicate the evil of religion.

I know that christianity is one of the cornerstones of our society but I don't think a parent wanting a secular education for their child is trying to destroy that. I am not too fond of any religion and having been brought up in a strict catholic home I still have the scars.

I still think the Easter story is scary and brutal for 4 and 5 year olds. Why not teach some of the beliefs behind cristanity without the stories behind them. I have no problem with kids being taught to love one another as they would themselves and do unto others as you would do unto yourself etc. Some of the stories in the old testament are good stories. I always like the stories of King Solomen. Always hated the one about the prodical son though. Never will understand the message in that- I digress.

Whatever you think about it personally, religion is, as claig says, a huge part of history. It has to be understood to make sense of history. The main point of history is to make sure that a lot of it never happens again.
I think that you can embrace it all, without necessarily believing it. If my DCs went to school in Pakistan I would expect the holidays to revolve around Muslim religious festivals. If I went to live in Malta I would know that I couldn't live without feeling the influence of the Catholic church. Join in,after all festivals are rejoicing and fun, and do my own, e.g. Christmas. This is what happens here. A Muslim teacher that I work with has Eid off as a holiday. My husband's office is mainly Jewish-they get double holidays, they have the Jewish Festivals and then they celebrate Chrismas too-go out for Christmas lunch etc-they send us a Christmas card. They have a great time around December! It is much better than the joyless-take the fun out of it-Winterval.

I am not keen on the Old Testament. I prefer the New Testament. But I want all of it taught in schools, because it is part of our history and heritage and if we don't understand the Old Testament, we will not understand much of what was written and thought by our ancestors.

The parable of the prodigal son is a fantastic piece of New Testament Christian teaching. It shows that the father (God) will always love you and forgive you whatever you have done. You can be the black sheep of the family but will be loved just as much as any other member of the family. This is the beauty and power of the Christian faith. It is about love and forgiveness, not evil.

"What about nativity plays and school children singing Christmas carols like "Hark the Herald Angels Sing". These things are part of our culture. Should we jettison them because a minority don't like them? Isn't it reasonable for the minority to respect the culture and traditions of the majority?"

We did original pantomimes when I was in primary school. Absolutely loved them.

agree with you damnedchilblains. I am not even particularly religious now, hardly ever go to church. But I still remember when we all rehearsed our hymns and carols at primary schools, when we sang those beautiful words and felt a sense of awe and wonder. They are part of the traditions of this great country and I hope we never close our eyes and find that some people have removed them from us.

Claig not wanting to digress too much but whilst I have no problem with Godor a parent loving his wayward son I think the poor son who stays at home and is sensible is not rewarded for doing so. It is like rewarding a naughty child by throwing a big party. Love him by all means but rewards him for being foolish - no.

Kings and their divine right to rule have been challenged because these concepts are incompatible with our faith>>

Well of course the 'divine right to rule' come from religion in the first place so I'd keep quiet about that one.

I don't want to replace christmas with a secular holiday as it already is one. This has been addressed before, but it was ours before the christians moved the birth of jesus over to it and tried to take it over. It still is a secular holiday for most of us, but as I've said many times we don't mind if christians celebrate their thing on the same day. This is also true of Easter (enjoy your eggs and may Astarte make you fertile)

As for not objecting to Islam/Hindu/etc practices you are quite wrong. I am just as opposed to those being taught as 'true' in school as I am christianity.

ONCE MORE for the 'hard of thinking'. I and most others are NOT objecting to children learning ABOUT the role of religion in culture and history. We object to you palming your particular fictional story off as the truth.

drosophila, the way I understand it is that the son who stayed at home was sinning because he was jealous, he thought he was more desrving than his brother. No one is more deserving than anyone else. The pious man is not superior to the sinner. None of us are better than our neighbours. "Let him who has never sinned cast the first stone". We have no right to judge others. Only God will judge and He loves us all equally. God helps those in greatest need more than He helps the pious. God loves sinners, he helps outcasts, criminals, tramps and people that the rest of society may feel superior to.
"There is more joy in heaven over one lost sinner who repents and returns to God than over ninety-nine others who are righteous and haven't strayed away". That is the beauty of Christianity, there is hope for all us whatever we may have done.

The parable of the prodigal son is a fantastic piece of New Testament Christian teaching>>>

awww it is isn't it.

Course then the is the one where god tells Abraham to take his son and cut him open with a knife and Abraham (who is supposedly a good man) goes to actually do it - just because he thinks god wants him to.

The willingness to kill a child makes him god's favorite from then on

onagar that is the Old Testament. I don't like the Old Testament, it is a totally different kettle of fish to the love and beauty of Jesus Christ's teaching in the New Testament.

Claig, you are back to talking ridiculous biased nonsense again. Religious institutions resist social change and collude with the powerful in suppressing, banning and killing people who suggest that the poor are not the property of the rich, that women and gay men are human beings entitled to do as they see fit with their own bodies etc. All the social progress of the past 100 years has happened IN SPITE OF the crap-peddlers, not because of them.

ANd all these whining bucketheads as featured in your news stories deserve the prohibitions and disciplinary actions taken against them as they are always shown, when the full story comes out, to have been making pests of themselves, not so much asking for the right to hold their sily beliefs but the right to harass their workmates with them; they are often mildy racist as well, complaining about foreigners with their funny foreign superstitions being given 'extra' privileges. (That twat of a woman who took on British Airways for the right to wear a dustbin-lid sized crucifix at work was complaining that Sikhs were allowed to wear turbans and she didn't think they should be...)

How can you separate the two testaments? they are two parts of the same book.

Oh no wait a second, the old one was a heavily edited version of the one true god from the Torah.

The second one was a PR job in which God was kept in the background and the whole "non genocidal maniac" image was promoted.

I can see why you would prefer the second one. but the truth is that you can't separate them.

So answer this, why do you love the teachings of a man who followed such a brutal, jealous, vindictive, petty, murderous, infanticidal, judgmental God? I don't know how you can equate that message with love.