to tell DD he's not the Messiah he's a very naughty boy?

[bobdog]

DD, nearly 5, has come home with a muddled story of Jesus on a cross thing for Easter. The school seem to present this along with the alphabet as a FACT.

AIBU to muddle her up with Monty Python quotes and send her back to school singing 'always look on the bright side of life'

(No offence intended to those that choose to believe in any Religon or to the Bible as a collection of stories and parables)

onagar, you are entirely incorrect to say 'there is no proof'.

I am?

Do you mean there is some now (I've not been keeping up with the news this week) or do you mean it's wrong to say it out loud where people might hear it?

I think most religious people will actually say it's a matter of faith not proof. In fact it's been suggested that there is no proof on purpose since god prefers faith.

Oh to cover all the possibilities if you just meant proof of jesus having lived. There is some proof that a guy called that did live. I'm pretty sure it was third hand information even back then and not the conclusive proof people assume there is. However I have no problem with him existing as it would prove nothing either way about the existence of god and the truth of the bible.

I'm not christened, neither is my brother, nor is my husband and neither are our children.
Supperstitious nonsense.

onagar, it's pretty well accepted by theologians, historians etc that a man called Jesus lived, and was crucified. As such, to teach children that it is 'just a story' is like suggesting that the Battle of Hastings 'may or may not have happened.'

As far as whether he was the Son of God, and was resurrected etc, that is a matter of faith.

I am not a Muslim, but would not doubt the existence of Mohammed.

LilyBolero, honestly I'm not sure and it would take way too much research to be sure. However when this has come up before the actual 'evidence' put forward by those who believe in it appeared to be a vague mention by someone who lived in another country based on what some passing travellers had told him and the memoirs of some other people who lived generations later and who couldn't possibly have met him.

In any case they are not really just teaching them that someone called jesus existed, but that he died for their sins, spoke to god and all that implies. Whereas he might (if he lived) have died because he was a criminal who broke local laws. So in that sense still a story. Like those films "inspired by true events"

As such, to teach children that it is 'just a story' is like suggesting that the Battle of Hastings 'may or may not have happened.'

No-one would teach a child that the Battle of Hastings didn't happen, but they could legitimately tell them that the part about Harold being killed by an arrow in the eye was probably 'just a story'.

The Bayeux tapestry is not an accurate historical document. Neither are the gospels.

Some truth, some embroidery.

I've taught my son that all of the books (Bible et al) are like esops fables, they are books of morals and all pretty much say the same thing anyway (don't kill, help each other, don't steal etc). I don't mind him reading the bible, it's actually quite interesting once you look past all the death and brutal murder (and he gets told off at school for writing stories containing guns etc!!). I also teach him that faith can be a good thing for some people, it's a community, somewhere where people feel like they belong and anything that does this for people is a good thing.

Onagar

The issue with denying the existance of Jesus (and the existance of other later prophets such as Mohammed) is that there are too many contemporary sources saying the same thing for it to have been made up (one argument is that most people were illiterate then and all accounts are oral- the bit about illiteracy is true but there are many writings from that time- not just religious texts- which mention the existance of Jesus, and latterly Prophet Mohammed).

As such, the majority of Theologian scholars (not all of whom are religious btw)dont disagree that these people existed and that they were spiritual men. Jesus told people he was the son of God and Mohammed that he was a prophet. The issue is whether you believe this or that they were just charlatans/ confused.

Therefore to tell people "it's all made up" is wrong. The issue is the interpretation and of course, translation of scripts, changing meanings of words over time and ambiguity have led to arguments over what was intended- one of the most obvious examples is the debate over whether the Qoran requires muslim women to cover their faces.

So anyway, that 's the historian in me talking. Where does that leave me religion wise? I am nominally CofE by upbringing and current faith. What does that mean to me? Do I believe that we go to heaven when we die? Not really if I'm honest. I wish I did as then I would be much less scared of dying but you cant force faith, just as you cant deny it. Do I think that Jesus, whoever he was, had some good teachings about how to live life not just in your best interests but to the wider good? Yes, I do. I also think that Islam has some pertinent teachings, especially it's emphasis on looking to yourself for improvement first, not casting around to find others to judge.

On that basis, I am happy for my children to learn about religious teachings, because I think it provides a good framework. I'm not bothered about them sticking to Christian teachings as I do believe that it's probably a case of "many paths".

Anyway, sorry for the long post. Not trying to lecture anyone, and I do recognise that there are many many problems with organised religion. I'm just saying that I think people feeling that theres a line in the sand and they have to either believe everything in the bible/Qoran unconditionally or alternatively say "Stupid sky fairy is just made up" is wrong.

We'll none of us ever know till we die anyway.

My 15 year old son has had 10 years of Catholic education and is convinced it's "all bollocks". Fair enough - his considered choice.

There is nothing you can say to a none believer to make them believe, and conversely there's nothing you can say to a believer to disabuse them of their faith.

Thanks for all the comments - we have a vomiting bug crisis here, I don't think you can catch it via this but will steam clean post before sending.

I would like my children to learn facts, stories, fables & skills that I personnaly love, find boring or have never heard of. That is what a great education is all about.

I struggle with teaching small children (dd is nearly 5) the crucifiction story at her local state school. It scared her, it was treated as a serious fact by the same person who delivers the anti-bullying/hand washing/healthy eating stuff. I am confused as to what message I should give back, (guilty of over explaining sometimes ) do I back the school? gently explain lots of people have different beliefs? save the ironic narrative of the Life of Brian till she's out of Reception?

Looks like I'm not the only one struggling with it.

And according to DD1, Sandra the white, middle aged, middleclass, pasty eating nursery leader who for the first time in ages went all the way to Exeter last year (we live in Cornwall), is completely in charge of Chinese New Year. Evidently Dragons come and give you chocolate coins in a red envelope but only if your Mummy has signed the form.

Any suggestions on the correct response?

is it wrong that i find the most shocking post on here that

daftpunk !?!

Tell that to my children - they fall about laughting at it about once every 6 weeks!

The Life of Brian will always be funny. As soon as DS is old enough, that's how he shall be taught religion

No..I'm sorry, the life of Brian isn't funny anymore, it was only ever mildly amusing imo..

I tend to find it's only middle class drips who can recite entire scenes ..y'know, as if the film is still "cutting edge"

.....

Plus, I'm sure even John Cleese admitted the life of Brian wasn't that good..

who is gonna put me out of my misery and remind me the title of the one with the catholic woman who had loads of kids and spat one out as she was washing some clothes in the yard? monty python that is. Pleeeease

Are you as outraged when your children learn about Diwali or Eid at the relevant times during the year?<

the outraging difference is that children in most uk schools are taught about Diwali or Eid as something "some people believe", but christmas and the ressurection of jesus as facts.

The Meaning of Life - according to Wikipedia at the time of its release, the Pythons confessed their aim was to offend "absolutely everyone".

That particular chapter finished in the great musical number "Every sperm is sacred" choreographed by Arlene Phillips who said working on the film, and in particular the "Every Sperm is Sacred" sequence, as "the very best time" of her professional career.

Daftpunk - I have n't sat through a whole scene recital since the first nervous term at university when a few people had cd players and the university computers used Wordstar. I understand now they all talk about their Gap years and helping the poor and needy.

I'm probably 'middle class' now but as the first person to go to uni in my family I can say the lower orders do have a sense of humour and sometimes enjoy a bit of irony at the steelworks.

every sperm is sacred is onw of my favourite songs ever

ROFL at Goosey's DS with was Jesus a zombie of death!!

DD1 is in reception at our local school, which is unfortunately C of E, and being exposed to her first major dose of Christianity this year. She keeps asking me if Jesus brings dead people back to life. I think this was brought on by MIL passing away last month.

The problem is, we're Jewish. And to top it off, agnostic Jews. So, we have to explain to DD1 that what she's being taught at school is what Christians believe, then we explain what Jews believe, and then we have to explain that Mummy and Daddy don't really believe any of it!

Poor, poor child!!!

And YATNBU to send DD back with Life of Brian quotes. Cos they are funny. Ignore DP, she is often lacking in a sense of humour.

is vaguely complimented by being called a middle class drip by DP

Ex-Leper: Okay, sir, my final offer: half a shekel for an old ex-leper?
Brian: Did you say "ex-leper"?
Ex-Leper: That's right, sir, 16 years behind a veil and proud of it, sir.
Brian: Well, what happened?
Ex-Leper: Oh, cured, sir.
Brian: Cured?
Ex-Leper: Yes sir, bloody miracle, sir. Bless you!
Brian: Who cured you?
Ex-Leper: Jesus did, sir. I was hopping along, minding my own business, all of a sudden, up he comes, cures me! One minute I'm a leper with a trade, next minute my livelihood's gone. Not so much as a by-your-leave! "You're cured, mate." Bloody do-gooder.

you are so not being unreasonable {grin]

damn it