to want my husband to actually deal with his family...?

[ginnybag]

...specifically, the situation with regards to his parents and his brother. (V. long, sorry!!)

As background: My MIL (lovely lady!) had a massive stroke three years ago, which left her wheelchair bound and unable to speak.

My FIL, used to relying completely on MIL to organise the house, food shopping, bills etc, went completely to pieces, to the point where the house was a disaster and the business he owns and runs was in real trouble. He's talented at the actual skill of the business, but hopeless at the book-keeping, tax paying etc etc side.

DH and I bailed him out, as family does, both financially with the business (something which left us financially shaky ourselves and which has resulted in me being back at work despite my DD being only eight weeks old!) and practically and emotionally with all the stuff regarding the long term care for my MIL, the housework etc etc.

And, all through this, my DH's middle brother, who is nearly forty and still living at home, sat on his duff, 'traumatised' by his mother's stroke, and did nothing.

Now, to be clear, DH father is not MIL's first husband. DH is her youngest child - my two BIL are older and by a different man. They are my FIL step-sons in effect, although there has never been anything formal in place.

Middle BIL hates my FIL, supposedly because he mistreated my MIL. (In ten years+ of being with my DH, I've never seen any evidence of this and DH says he never saw it either, as does elder BIL)

To this end, as soon as my MIL had the stroke, middle BIL took it upon himself to collect up all her bank cards and personel papers etc and 'take charge' of them. He changed all MIL's pin numbers, so that he was the only one who had access. Him, not my FIL.

Both MIL's pension and all her DLA get paid into the account in her name, not my PIL's joint account. This means my FIL has no access to this, despite paying out several hundred pounds a week in carer costs etc.

BIL also still lives in PIL house, not contributing at all. He's self-employed as a driving instructor, so makes his own working hours, yet, not once, in three years, has he taken his mother out for the day. He's never once taken her to a hospital appointment - leaving my DH and me to take her (and take time off work) or FIL to manage it by closing his business for the day and pay for taxi's.

He pays no rent or housekeeping, but complains that FIL keeps forgetting to buy specific items for him. He does no domestic work. The one night a week he's supposed to make MIL's tea, he orders pizza from the local indian takeaway.

My FIL is miserable and stressed and keeps asking me what he should do. He doesn't feel he can throw BIL out because he is MIL's son. MIL is miserable, because she knows what's happening but is powerless to change it.

Things came to a head this past week, when FIL birthday passed without so much as a card from BIL (or MIL, because BIL thought FIL didn't deserve one from her!) and then FIL was admitted to hospital.

Despite being in the house when the ambulance came, BIL didn't think it necessary to contact my DH, who is, besides my MIL, my FIL only next of kin. He sent a no-longer-young, rather sick man into hospital alone, and told no-one.

We found out when we went round on Sunday evening as we normally do, and FIL wasn't there. MIL was in pieces; BIL's comment when I lost my temper with him (and I admit I shouldn't have!) was 'who cares what happens to him?'

DH was upset, but said nothing to his brother, as he hasn't for the past three years.

AIBU to think he has to sit down with his brother and sort all this out? If not now, when? Is he intending to let one of his parents die before he deals with the issue? Am I wrong to think it would be disastrous if he did, whichever way round it was?

DH says he can't 'deal with it right now' (his refrain on the topic for three years now!) and that, if I'm so worried 'I should do it myself' but I don't think I have the right, and that it has to come from him. To begin with, I think there are legal ramifications to some of this, and that's certainly not something I should be involved with.

Sorry for the length of the post... there's a lot of water under this bridge and more with each passing day.

Your FIL is her next of kin BTW he should be calling the shots

Hi I sorry you are in a rotten situation but given that FIL is in hosp may help as a duty of care is owed to him so his needs and requirments to go home and be safe in that environment will be looked at [ask hosp what they are district nurse calling etc They are a legal requirement and must be done before he leaves] if I were in your shoes [not knowing what is wrong with your FIL but assuming he is elderly] I would write to Dr who's care he is under ask for a geriatric assessment and explain that he is a carer and has to do A,B,C everyday [make breakfast help MIL dress/wash etc] no matter how basic write it down that way your Mil may be reassed again and more care given also BIL would have to show MIL's accounts and perhaps your DH or you and older Bil could get power of attorny/get it handed over to MIL again or given to FIL. I think it was already suggested futher up but contact a solicitor/cab Your Mil money is 1 hers and 2 for her care and unless she was proven incompetant it is v hard to hand over/get P O A.

This is scaryily similar to the future I see for us.
MIL had a stroke a few months ago and BIL is acting like a complete premadonna, albeit he is only 25. FIL has taken on all the role of the house keeping/cooking.

SIL and DH had 'words' with BIL along the lines of 'pull your act together or fuck off' He has done a bit but it is still not good. You need to do whatever it takes to get your BIL out of the hosue and out of control. Can your MIL sign a power of attorney?

I hoep your FIL is feeling better soon.

Ginnybag could you post in Legal just to get some prudent relevant advice? I know some of us have gone through similar issues but each case is stand alone and tbh I feel that legal advice / advice on who to contact may help

There's lots of good advice/support here, especially Buzzybb's suggestion of CAB and posting in Legal.

Depending on your PIL's ages, maybe Age Concern could also assist/advise?

I can well imagine that your DH finds it difficult to intervene directly (even though that's what he should be doing, but by the sounds of it your BIL is toxic), so perhaps getting any or several of the outside agencies involved would help take some of the heat off your DH when the situation blows up (as it's likely to do at some time).

I think there is financial abuse going on amongst the fact that BIL is treating FIL cruelly in his own home.

BIL is a cock.

Your DH needs to sort it.

Seek some legal advice.

I think you may have to step in, your DH surely can't be standing by and watching this happening?

I have visions of FIL dying and BIL (who I assume is half-brother if FIL is not his dad? apologies if I have that wrong) basically making himself the "owner" of everything and your DH or MIL being left with nothing ... Even if DH doesn't want to confront his brother, he should be willing to deal with this out of respect for his parents. Frankly, if my DH stood by and did nothing I'd lose respect for him very quickly indeed.

Ginny sorry you are just on my mind all day as we have gone through something similar but and am sorry to say this [don't mean to judge your bil wrongly] If your FIL is still in hosp can you/dh get permission to enter hse and get his financial documents and if the hse deeds are there to get them also and maybe put in a bank safety deposit box if you do that maybe your dh and older bro should go and do it together. Sorry I might be way out of line but all assets need to be protected while your FIL is unable to manage them.
I hope your FIL is feeling better and plse look after yourself the stress of this is often forgotten about

BIL is abusing your MIL as much as your FIL. She must be so confused and scared and unable to do anything about it. It's made me really upset even thinking about it.

I would lay money that BIL has been withdrawing money from her accounts as well. If your DH really can stand by and watch his brother abuse then I do think you have the responsibility to do something about it, your FIL keeps asking you what he should do, he's asking for your help, and you really need to offer it. Can you communicate with MIL in a meaningful was without BIL being involved?

If it was me, I would see your DH in a very different light if he could let your BIL abuse BOTH his parents like this, especially as his mother is so vulnerable and unable to speak for herself. Is there a reason for him to be scared of his brother (in which case why is he happy for you to take up the cause?), or does he just not really care about his parents?

Have thought about this thread since yesterday and feel so for the MIL.

I too would lose resect for my dh if he allowed this to continue.

I would also consider police involvement as it sounds illegal for BIL to be changing pins and taking money. The fucker.

Hi,

To answer some of the points:

BIL changed the pin numbers because he had the old ones. We all did. My MIL used the same numbers for everything (bad form, I know!) The bank is not at fault.

He says he did it expressly because FIL had 'never let MIL have anything for herself and why should he spend all her money now and not his?' I don't buy this - yes, MIL was a stay at home mum, who recieved housekeeping from FIL every week and was expected to budget, but that's not abuse in my eyes.

In fact, in MIL own words a few years ago, that was the arragement she and my FIL came to themselves over the years. Certainly, MIL always had money to go out, buy the things she needed/wanted and to redecorate (her major hobby!) three times a year.

They rowed, sometimes, because MIL wanted to replace big items that FIL didn't think needed replacing yet, but that was FIL looking at his bank balance, his own deteriorating health and trying to make sure he had enough savings to get them through true 'old age' in comfort. He wasn't always right to say no, but he wasn't always wrong, either.

Part of the root of the problem, I think, is that FIL is not very bright. He and my DH don't have a great relationship, because FIL was at work a lot when DH was little and not really able to 'keep up' with things. He can be very wearing on the patience, because he does seem to be perenially five minutes behind the rest of the world - a tendency that gets worse when he's stressed or uncomfortable. He's also partially deaf, so he speaks very loudly. I think that, when he was a child, DH found this rather embarassing and trying, and the reaction has became habituated, even though he knows it's not logical anymore.

I think he also, like BIL, only ever saw MIL saving for things when he knew FIL had thousands in bank accounts and, because FIL couldn't clearly explain why he was saying no, perhaps did slightly think FIL was being overly tight with money.

Both FIL and MIL are in their early sixties, but their health is poor on both sides. Both have long-term conditions, which, in FIL's case, are excacerbated by stress.

Elder BIL will not get involved. He's had several screaming rows with BIL over this, but achieved nothing except upsetting MIL who does not want her sons arguing.

I, too, think their are major legal implications for what is happening. And part of why I want my DH to get his head out of the sand is that I can see it going down that route in the future. Neither of my PIL's have wills (and I've tried to get FIL to write one!) so should either of them die it's going to be a real mess.

If MIL goes first, then FIL inherits all her half of things, and we're going to have major issues with BIL and the bank accounts and what have you. If FIL goes first, then MIL inherits, and I think we may have more problems.

Oh, and I don't give two hoots whether BIL drops off the faceof the planet. He's an ineffectual twonk, and a complete waste of air. Unfortuantely, DH doesn't want to alienate his brother and MIL would be very upset by any such thing.

I had another 'discussion' about all this with DH last night. He says he knows he needs to say something, but doesn't know how and can't face it right now, not with the new baby etc.

And I will admit that the more he backs down from this, the more I am getting frustrated and disappointed with him. I really thought he had more backbone.

Ginny, It must be awful for you to be trying to cope with this when your baby is so young. But by your dp not doing anything about it everything seems to be left at your door.
Why not try to get your dp to tackle one issue at a time i.e getting the bank accounts sorted into your fil name. It may seem easier to cope with if he can.

Ginny It need not be you or DH it can be SS /SW what kind of support [outside family] do they have are the under a geriatric team ? Your DH can get help there, can you speak to the bank say MIL accounts have been taken over without POA by bil and MIL is a vunerable person as is FIL and others are concerned asp as he is not next of kin ask them what procedures they have that may help Am so sorry but this needs to be done sooner rather then later, we are currently trying to see where £20,000 2ent to from an elderly families account, we are being told for her care but where are reciepts? We leave reciept for a pint of milk if we take the mooney.
Money really is the route of all evil

This is an awful situation and I really feel for you and you family. As other posters have said, your BIL has no right to control your MIL's bank acounts and what he's doing to both your PIL is elder abuse.

I really would get some advice from Help the Aged about what to do as, unless this is sorted out now, it will only get worse as the health of both your PIL deteriorates. As Buzzybub says, it's also worth talking to the bank too. How are you to know whether he's just holding the accounts to hostage or using them? If money is being taken out and not given to your MIL, surely that's theft?

It's not fair on you to be taking the brunt of this and I hope that your DH will realise asap that he needs to take the lead in sorting this out. Could you talk to your other BIL as well so that DH and he could perhaps do it together? They need to tackle your other BIL and protect the best interests of both your PIL now. Good luck.

Your DH has to do something.

It really isn´t your BILs concern how his mum& step father arrange their finances.

Just because they gave you their PIN numbers-does that automatically give the right to use them?

And how did BIL get hold of the card-given to him or did he effectively steal it?

I agree with others-he is disgusting-but how can your husband sit by & let his mum be treated like this?

Also meant to say we got a solicitor to do a hse call to write a will for elderly relatives was great no stress tea and cakes a chat etc but what we suggested to protect them was that as next of kin each would inherit as normal but we also got an independant trustee [family friend who is a policeman] who would realese cash when needed as in he would ask Do you want to give x or y a, b, or c that way we could not arguee we also had a floating pot of £1000 which we could access in a hurry if needed but all reciepts had to be put into pot. My relatives were not incompetant but older and confused and Dr diagnoised mild dementia which helped us

Well if he wants to say something but doesn't know how, how about this for starters:

To BIL obv.

"Now that Dad is in hospital and Mum is still not well we really need to sort out the legal and financial side so that they are covered for any help or care that they need. I am worried that it is all a bit messy at the moment and Mum is obv worried by it. How about we sit down and work out what should happen and how we sort it. It shouldn't all fall to you and I would worry a bit that if anything goes wrong that you would feel to blame."

All easy to say and not blaming anyone.

If it makes any difference, my dh and I have a will (not massively relevant I know but threw up some interesting points, hence why I raise it!) and when putting together assets our home which is in both our names was put as an "asset". At the time I was told and have no reason to believe any differently now, that if anything should happen to either one of us then the house would automatically become the others property and could not be "willed" out to anyone else. I can see that the problem here would be that you are concerned about what happens if FIL goes first so to speak. If that is the case and then MIL goes I think that BIL would have a hard time getting his hands on anything due to intestate laws, most would got to the govt - leaving him homeless I would hasten to add which he obviously hasn't thought of.

We recently had some family issues with regards to inheritance (upsetting but done whilst all alive and in relative good health - making it a little bit easier) after my DF had a stroke, we also have a "split" family with 2 mothers, however we all sat down together and discussed it as rationally as possible as it is an emotional subject. What we all wanted was for it to be fair, my db/ds wanted to know that I wasn't going to be seen more favourably than them as did I. This is because from my pov being the only child from the second relationship would mean that with no parents and this occuring I would maybe be slightly better off financially but my dc and my bro/sis dc would not be better off emotionally. AFAIC I value having my family and a good relationship with them far more than the financial side of things. (Although there are still days I could cheerfully throttle them all too! )

I am not sure if any of that helps but I do know that ganging up on bil might not be the best way forward, being more open about it all is likely to be best and if BIL decides he doesn't want to do that then I think it is time to call in a solicitor to help sort out POA - it isn't unusual after an illness and is something that they regularly deal with.

you never know, bil might have al ready set himself up with PoA for his mother or be thinking about it - all the more reason for your fil to be doing it (or even getting you dh to have it if he trusts you and doesn't want to do it himself).

Sometimes it can help to think of two or three different options for all the bits you are concerned about and then get your dh and fil to choose one of the options (or best bits from the options) - sometimes people are scared of thinking of everything themselves whereas comparing options can provide a framework to discuss things.

it can be hard - my uncle drove my nan to the solicitor to make her will after my father died and she got some strange notion about us no longer being her grandchildren as my dad was no longer alive - now she only had one son and therefore could only have one set of grandchildren and she left pretty much everything to them despite having always said that her thing in life was that she was scrupulously fair about sharing things between her children and grandchildren. It wasn't the money side that hurt, it was the fact that she couldn't see that we were still her grandchildren even though her son had died -

Thanks for all the responses so far.

It's halping to know others see BIL actions in the same light I do.

AFAIK, BIL simply took MIL purse and her cards and changed the pins in the days after she was admitted to hospital. I was unhappy about this at the time, but nothing was done.

As it stands, I do now have real concerns. No-one has seen a bank statement for three eyears. MIL seems to be purchasing things through BIL as she needs them, but we have no way of knowing what else is being spent, as people are saying.

The money is an issue, of course, but it's more than that. Aside from anything else, I can see assisted living in the near future, as PIL health declines further, and that's going to be hard enough without having to sort all this out simultaneously.

And, yes, FIL needs to write a will asap. I'm not sure how we're going to get MIL to do so. She can only manage yes or no nods and shakes and those aren't realiable. she has no grip on anyone's name!

Hi. Sorry if I am repeating what has already been said.
If your MIL receives DLA and she cannot access her bank herself, she should have signed something with DLA as to whom she wanted to do that for her. Your BIL cannot just change her pin numbers and use her account. Did your MIL give him written permission to do this?
If not, get your dh to go the bank and put a stop on the cards,(tell the bank why), until this is legally sorted out. If your MIL is happy with your FIL, get them both to go to a solicitor to sort out her finances. Your MIL should get Legal Aid as she is on benefits.
Does your FIL receive Carers Allowance? If your MIL receives Middle Rate Care/High Rate Care your FIL can receive Carers Allowance which would help towards taxi costs etc.
Your BIL sounds like a bully, and if he is distressing your MIL and FIL he should be told to find his own place,and he should certainly be contributing to the house.
It sounds a nasty situation,and like your BIL is trying to drive your FIL away, which would leave your MIL very vulnerable wrt her finances.

Sorry, forgot to say, I think it would be good for your MIL to have an advocate to "speak" for her. Is there a Carers Centre near you? They offer free advice to carers and could possibly point you in the right direction to try and sort this mess out. They would also know of suppotr grps your MIL and FIL could access and anything else that might help them.

If your mil was in hosp your bil had no right to change her acc check I think he would have to have had written permission for him to do it, the bank could help if that is fact
Also if they need more state help will their finances be checked? Your bil could be in very big legal trouble if it is seen that he inappropriatly used her funds so the sooner it is sorted the better [Is it embezzelment? surely that carries a prison sentence that is only my opinion I could be wrong]

Try giving Age Concern a call.
they will be able to give you advice on how to deal with elder abuse.