to be a bit sickened by the apparent 'feminism' under study in the Women documentary?

[mrsbean78]

Dad staying at home to care for kids = househusband
Mum staying at home to care for kids =
full time mum

Each man challenged about how much housework he does, yet "househusband" also challenged about how well he does the housework by a wife who is irritated that he shrinks her cashmere jumpers and doesn't clean the bins, when clearly, as she says, she couldn't be expected to work and do housework.

All participants apparently comfortably well off enough to make the 'choice' about who works and who doesn't, living in beautiful leafy-suburb/rural pad type homes.

I don't feel it is at all representative of my life and am finding it terribly patronising to the men, don't know how others feel?

Just to be clear, I'm not blaming the women in DH's family for their attitudes and comments to me.

I blame the wider system that means they see themselves this way and therefore project that onto me.

I do feel pressure when my very house-proud MIL comes to visit but I don't blame her for that. I blame the fact that she has been brought up by a patriarchal system to see house work as a woman's domain.

If some of the WAGs are saying that they are useless at domestic work, that's about the first smart thing I've ever heard about them.
I think more women should take the male attitude towards shitwork - that a bit of mess won't kill you, that there is more to live than sparkling surfaces etc.
Because, while the basic shitwork has to be done by somebody ie obtaining and preparing food, doing laundry, disposing of rubbish and a bit of cleaning so kitchen and bathroom arne't total plague pits, most of it is unnecessary fannying around, pushed as 'vital' by the manufacturers of cleaning products on one hand, and those who don't much like the idea of women being full humans rather than a servant class, on the other.
I have always been a domestic slob and used to say half-jokingly to friends that one reason for this was to make sure that none of the men I shagged got any bright ideas about me being keen to service them domestically. OK I have a little bit of a problem with mess these days, but even when I address the worst of it, I'm still going to maintain that a bit of a mess won't kill you. So my main point is that having a womb doesn't make you 'better' at domestic shitwork (have known very houseproud men) and more women should just do LESS of it.

Shonaspurtle and others,

I am fascinated by this! My dh absolutely has the guilt/shame about the house being tidy and I have virtually none of it. I am a pure and utter slob really and I'm not even ashamed of it. I still have to read the instructions for the washing machine because I don't use it often enough. I am feeling more and more like a chauvinist pig! We do the manic tidy for visitors but always together.

I remember watching a friend at university iron and fold her knickers and being a bit flabberghasted.

When people talk about housework being trivialised because it is women's work, I wonder if many household chores need to be trivialised in some respects. I don't know that it is strictly necessary to fold and iron your undergarments, for example. And daily routines to, say, plump up cushions.. are they important? As Avril Heytch says, isn't some of this driven by the media?

Our slobbish existence contributes to our marital harmony because when I say dh is houseproud, I guess he is in (from what I read here) a sort of male way. Me too. The place gets tidied but it's not show-home standard, the countertops are washed down, the dishes done, the bathroom gets a good going over every once in a while but certainly not every day, there are no arguments about handprints on the glass doors or scum in the bath because we largely ignore these things unless we have visitors coming.

I have learned to lie about these things to other women though. I would never let anyone I was acquainted with in real life have any idea of the mess I live in!

We cross posted SolidGoldBrass, but absolutely!

The idea that women do it(enforce high standards) to themselves is very problematic, to be honest. There's another AIBU thread running at the moment which implies the same thing.

In counties where FGM is practised, it's the female members of the family that tend to enforce it, and often even perform the ritual.

They don't do that in the abstract. For kicks. They do it because they want their daughters to be acceptable within the society they have to live in.

Women don't judge each other's makeup and housekeeping skills in a cultural void. We act as cultural gatekeepers (which manifests as judgement and bitchiness, sure) because we all live in a society which teaches us that certain things are acceptable and certain things aren't. We judge each other for hairy legs or whatever, because we've all grown up in a patriarchy. We've learned to collude with our oppressors, if you want to put it that way.

Saying 'women are the harshest critics of women and therefore it's not about men/feminism' is a very superficial analysis, frankly.

Or, you know, what Beachcomber said in a lot less words.

When we feel the mess in our house is getting beyond the pale, we invite friends over for Sunday lunch or for dinner in a week or two's time. Then a little bit more cleaning will be done and we will be tidier and more disciplined in anticipateion of their visit. Its our way of doing a mini spring clean. The rest of the time we are pretty untidy and don't hoover enough and never dust!

But we have food in the fridge and eat properly, clean clothes, clean dishes and a clean toilet. So alls well .

However, the only way to change the culture is to be aware of and challenge the necessity of its artefacts.

Oooh, haven't used a word like that in a long time!

I am guessing my indifference to/general lack of shame about housework relates to my mother's conscious decision to deprioritise it. That was a feminist decision.

This doesn't imply that women 'do it to themselves' but these are choices we do have in western culture, they are ours to make. If it is expected, we need to battle it. My son (and any future sons or siblings) will grow up in a household where both men and women undertake shitwork (love the phrase) but where the opportunity afforded by a sunny day will always trump the need to clean the shower doors.

For once that Beach manages to express herself without about seven paragraphs!

I agree with you tortoise about the gatekeeper idea and it being a fundamental factor in oppression. This is part of the all encompassing, insidious, pervasive nature of a society which is based on one group of people having priviledge over another. Female oppression and male priviledge are two ends of the same partiarchial stick.

I was actually thinking about FGM when I made my post.

I have been so revolutionary this last while that you can write your name in the dust on the television (have wood burning stove so lots of dust).

However have PIL coming to dinner so will have to curb revolutionary activities as I'm not enough of a revolutionary to stand up to the cultural pressure of MIL's gaze.

And that is exactly it, today she and I will both do a bit of colluding that she won't be aware of and I probably wouldn't have thought about if it hadn't been for this thread.

DH is doing the shopping and cooking though so things aren't too bad .

What did you all think about the argument in another thread that a woman shouldn't ask for reimbursement of childcare costs because others have to pay it/she decided to have kids/it would mean that she wouldn't be taken seriously in future?

What worried me with that thread was the idea that you shouldn't even ask in case it changed the perception of you as a worker. My husband has expressed similar concerns about requesting flexible working, though we have worked through this and realised that, of course, patriarchal society and all, he is right! Someone mentioned being told they were an 'unknown quantity' at work because of mat leave and that was the exact phrase used with dh!

Women in his firm get flexible working.. but not promotions. Men don't get flexible working.. and if they ask for it they don't get promotions.

There's patriarchy for you.

I think that is about capitalism as well as patriarchy/ feminism (right marxist, me!).

But men (as a group not individuals) aren't going to ask for flexible working, even if they would be happier that way, because it would mean losing the upper hand in the work place. Let;s face it, no employer has ever worried about employing a father in the way they would a mother. And that's where i think capitalism comes in - if we all have to fight for our jobs and livlihood with no security, we would men help women compete on an equal level?

True peppamum, capitalism is inherently sexist amongst all sorts of other 'ists'.

I wonder if we didn't have a patriarchal system if we would have a capitalist system however?

I like to think not!

In terms of my dh's job, which is private sector, I can understand the capitalist argument. However, I have a colleague who shares childcare equally with her partner who works in a caring profession in the NHS. Despite the fact that when he dropped his hours, his old post was refilled, he has had "question marks" over his "commitment" from day 1 of the arrangement and regular jibes about his "manhood". This despite the fact he continues to regularly work beyond his contracted hours on the days he is at work, in a supposedly supportive and reflective working environment.

Undoubtedly, the NHS is prey to market forces too: but I would suspect that the jokes/jibes/comments come out of something patriarchal vs capitalist.

You can be a Marxist feminist. Can you be a capitalist feminist?

Interesting question. If capitalism is about accquiring power (in the form of money)and therefore keeping it away from others, maybe not.

I think of feminism as being about equality, but as other threads have shown, definitions of feminism and capitalism are open to interpretation.

I think you can be a capitalist feminist

Isn't it the case that capitalism is blind to gender, class, race etc. I don't think capitalism cares who you are as long as you can deliver the goods. Women can set up their own businesses and compete on equal terms with any other business. Capitalism offers everyone the chance to make it. Capitalism doesn't protect patriarchy, it wouldn't care less if the majority of men were unemployed.

Most communist systems are run by a small handful of men. They are the ones who decide what rights will be granted to women. They do provide rights but they also restrict freedom and enforce their control on society.

I agree claig, capitalism is not inherently sexist (or racist or whatever). But it is a system which produces inequalities. So we have the class inequalities of capitalism combined with the gender inequalities of patriarchy. I guess liberal feminists are those who are most concerned with addressing gender inequalities while accepting the capitalist framework.

Possibly, but I guess it depends how you define feminism. I'd certainly agree that capitalism is gender, race, etc blind, in its pure form, and that anyone stricty speaking can 'make it'.

But if you live in a society that already has a class/ gender structure in it, then those who hold the balance of power will be able to continue and advance thier advantage under capitalism.

You could argue that the class structure was more entrenched than the gender one, because currently middle class women probably have more chance of getting ahead than working class men or women.

Also, I see feminism as being about creating an equal society for men and women. But if it is seen as allowing women to use the same rules as men to get ahead, then you can have a capitalist feminism.

Great minds Moleworth.

yes capitalism has no real interest in social conditions. It works with whatever social conditions exist within the society. It is quite happy to adapt to whatever changes to society that liberal feminists are able to make. I tend to prefer capitalism to communism because capitalism is prepared to adapt, it doesn't really seek to control.

Agree with all of this peppamum.

Can't think of one other thing to say!

I think freedom is the best choice, utopias, such as those based on the idea of equality, are very dangerous. Mao's China restricted families to one child, the leaders always know best and are heartless in their control. All of the books warning us about nightmare future societies such as Animal Farm, 1984, Brave New World etc. are generally based on communist type principles rather than capitalist ones.