to think most GPs just fob you off

[littlestmummystop]

I have my own GP in a big new shiny surgery but never get to see her as she is always booked up and often goes on holiday. So I get a different one every time I go..

I am a pretty healthy person luckily, but really don't feel like I can trust most GP's opinions. They always seem to just go for the easiest diagnosis.

I can see why so many people's cancers etc. are missed by shoddy GPs.

The latest advice is for people to stop bothering GPs with minor ailments, but you have to wait so long for an appointment I can't see why anyone would go unless they have to.
Then when you finally do get there, they are usually so dismissive that only people who complain the loudest will get proper care.
I understand they have a tough job but I can't help but feel most have a sense of superiority and are left not answerable to anyone.

AIBU?

The answer though, surely, is not to spend time defending your own practice?

Say: 'it is indefensible that patients are asked to stay away when they are worried and when it is unclear why they are worried, but the current government targets mean that it's the best option to ensure that the most needy patients are seen in an efficient manner'

not

'I work really hard!!'

The latter surely provokes GP-bashing, given the salaries involved?

I have had nothing but good experiences with our gp, sometimes I have felt like they would rather be somewhere else but that hasnt bothered me too much, they have always given good advice and treatment.I think we probably go maybe once every 4-5 months for one of the family although last summer we did have a patch of illneses which seems to see us there all the time!. Out of hours doctor which I have been to twice in the last few years is a different matter I complain loudly about them!

I think alot of it is just people being a little sensitive about being told they are over reacting to be honest and most of us must have been told that at some point especially where children are concerned!

And the salaries involved are....?

I take home a lot less than you would think. My job pays 60K if it was full time - I work half time (works out as 30hrs a week) and get 30K.

I don't think thats unreasonable for the level of responsibility we have, the need to keep up to date and fund our own ongoing training etc. Also, i pay 4k for my insurance (a legal necessity to do the job) and another 1k on necessary memberships/registration to GMC etc that I have to have to work - so actually take home 25K before tax and childcare.

Bearing in mind the 5 years unpaid training and getting into 15k of debt before qualitfying( i am from a low income family so no mummy and daddy handouts), I don't think my salary is unreasonable, actually.

its a tricky one.

i have had really bad experiences with GPs, been misdiagnosed, patronised (one even trotted out the old 'all patients are liers' line to me) and ignored.

and this was all private......

i really do think that SOME doctors do see themselves as superior.

and SOME patients go to a doctor and expect to be fixed much like taking a tv to be repaired.

both are going to be unpleasant experiences.

but generally, the NHS system is a problem, not so much the doctors themselves.

And again, greatfires, you are defending your own situation and your own practice rather than challenging those aspects of the system that are flawed.

I don't particularly have feelings about your salary one way or the other. I fully appreciate that your training is extensive and arduous. If we are going to couch salary purely in terms of social contribution/responsibility, you probably don't get paid enough.

However, this is a silly tack to take in this particular argument.

If you want to challenge the way things are, have Mr. Joe Bloggs or any of your other patients who work long hours for little pay support and applaud you, put it in terms that are relevant and meaningful to them. For a great many people, the salary you earn is a huge and inaccessible one - a great deal of the population have neither the cognitive ability nor social support from their background to sit in your seat.

If you want their support, tell them that their problem is with the government, not with you. Again, not: 'but I'm so great! I work so hard! I'm worth every penny!'

I've had some complete shockers in my time but the reason I stuck with my current GP, despite an appointment system of Byzantium proportions, is that she treats me like human.

The reason I will stick with her until she retires (which won't be long) is the way she dealt with my chronic migraines. Having established that I can follow an argument, she gave me a list of three possible drug treatments, made an appointment for me in two weeks, then told me to go away and research them and decide which one, if any, I was prepared to try first. I'm now happy with the regieme I am on. I'm also confident that if anything starts to go wrong she'll take me seriously.

She's worth every penny she gets IMHO.

poster By AliGrylls Fri 19-Mar-10 09:53:25
GPs don't have a tough job. They earn bloody good money for what is essentially becoming a day job. They start at 8 in the morning and finish at 6ish every evening.

Yes.

That's why I haven't seen my dh since TUESDAY. Cos he has a day job.

mrsbean - I do hear what you're saying, honest

Actually, I think you are spot on - and day to day I do try and explain to people about why appointment systems are a pain in the arse etc, and certainly do what I can to mitigate that where I work.

I'm not trying to defend my own situation, as such - I have a great bunch of patients and my day to day working life is good and I feel appreciated. I think a lot of people realise that its the government (any government) that makes it tricky, although I expect if we got the health service we wanted (20min appts etc) then taxes would have to massively rise!

(really need to get off this thread or will fail my exam and have no job anyway....)

Don't know whether to laugh or cry at some of the comments on here.

Of course GP's will miss some things, they are not superhuman with x-ray vision. I appreciate that some people will always confer god-like status on their GP but most GP's I have encountered are in fact just normal people and may only see a rarer condition maybe once in their career.

It is V hard to get it right all the time, most GP's are kind and patient but there will always be a few whose people skills are lacking, in which case as a patient you either need to find a different doctor, or get it flagged up! What tends to happen is that people will just mutter about how Dr So and So is 'rude' or 'unhelpful' (which generally translates as, refused to dish out abx for a snuffly nose) instead of actually doing something constructive.

It is so hard to close a consultation with a patient who has primarily come in for a chat that sometimes trying to cut them off in mid flow can be misconstrued as dismissiveness.

I am not a GP btw but I do appreciate the hard work and great job that the vast majority do.

However, I would say that using words like 'peanuts' (even if in the same sentence as 'monkeys') in the context of GP's salaries will not predispose many people to GP's are very well paid for what they do and with out of hours off their hands, have to do less for it! I am not saying you don't deserve it but try telling that to a cleaner on the minimum wage.

Sorry that last sentence doesn't make sense, I meant will not predispose many people to the GP's cause.

don't have time to read whole thread so am just replying to OP (sorry! i know that is MN no'1 sin!)

OP, YANBU.

i've had trouble with my back for years and i suspect that when i injured my back in my last pregnancy i herniated the disc. now i am pg and am very worried about what will happen to my back in labour. so off i pop to the G.P.

well! i might as well have asked the fairies to sort it out as all the G.P said was pg will soften the ligaments (hmm , did't know human females could be pregnant for 2+ years) and to try swimming!!! yeah, ok. when my back is so bad i can barely put one foot in front of the other or wipe my arse properly i'll just pop down to the pool and slip into my swimsuit and do a few lengths.

useless.

it's back to the chiropractor for me.

"have to say I have been amazed at the defensiveness of Macdoodle and think her comments rather brash and rude" - sorry NanaNina but I think you should go read some of your responses to the attacks on the social work profession - some of which I couldn't even read because they were deleted! MacDoodles posts aren't (IMO) any more defensive or rude than your own in similar circumstances.

And no, I'm not having a go at you being defensive, it's entirely understandable when someone is claiming that all of one profession are rubbish, what ever the profession.

I'm sorry about your sister, my grandfather died of lung cancer and its not pleasant and the thought of my sister dying younger than she should have is horrible for me to consider, but I assume that you also know that at whatever stage you're diagnosed with lung cancer, its not an easy cancer to treat and success rates are low.

GreatfiresofLondon- I know a couple who are both partners in a nearby GP practice.The man works full time and the wife part time.There lifestyle tells me their joint income is way way in excess of £60k + £30k

Having moved around a lot, I've had experience of good, bad and indifferent GPs. It riles me that people are criticised for 'bothering' doctors with 'minor' ailments. How do we know what is minor? That is for a trained health professional to judge, not someone (like me) who has googled their symptoms.

If someone is worried enough to endure the obstacle course that is achieving an appointment with their GP, they deserve that doctor's time.

It is patronising in the extreme to refer to 'heart sink' patients. We all deserve the same attention and treatment.

Oh, and fallon8 my GP did miss my daughter's cancer - it was only after I persisted by taking her to seven appointments with him that I got her a hospital referral.

I feel torn on this. I am a vet, (who also has to use a GP from time to time!), so I can see it a little bit from both sides.

Sometimes clients/ patients have unrealistic expectations. BUT I personally feel that we vets offer a far better service to our clients than GP's offer their patients- for a 1/3 of their salaries. We have 10 minute appointments, paperwork, blood results, insurance claims to sort, urine samples to look at AND operations to carry out, as well as house visits (which I personnally hate, unless necessary) but we still take a full clinical history and do a FULL clinical exam every time- something I have NEVER experienced with either myself or my kids at any of a number of GPs.

All my clients concerns are treated as valid- I don't see putting someone's mind at rest about their pet a waste of time- far better than them bringing an animal in at death's door that has been "not right" for 6 wks. I hate the feeling that the GP's surgery is doing me a favour by looking at my child. And I have to say that some of MY most demanding clients, expecting an appointment within 10 mins of ringing, or just turning up without an appt, are...GP's and receptionists!

I've joined this thread at the (no doubt) tail end, not having read all of it but have to say that my experience is that GP's (at least the ones at our local surgery) are fantastic.

They have to deal with the mundane - day in, day out - and determine the aches and pains from the actual illnesses. They have people showing up with ridiculous complaints (yet always having same-day appointments for my DC's when it turns out they are ultimately suffering from run of the mill childhood illnesses) and have done so with such patience, grace and (what is the word for non-dismissiveness?).

I have a few other experiences which compound my belief in these wonderful people but I have bored you enough.

joolyjoolyjoo: a third of a GP's salary? I seriously doubt it.

GPs get £63 per patient, per year. The average person visits her GP surgery 4.5 times per year (3 visits to the actual GP, 1.5 to a nurse or HCA). So a GP receives £14 per consultation. Out of this, we have to pay all the overheads of the Practice.

I have yet to find a vet who charges me only £14 per visit. It's more like £70 a time, which is more than your GP receives for an entire year's worth of care.

"..BUT I personally feel that we vets offer a far better service to our clients than GP's offer their patients- for a 1/3 of their salaries. .."

I totally agree with you. i have said for years now that I would rather be seen by a vet than a GP.

Vets don't even have the luxury of being able to ask their patients about their pain / symptoms yet manage to give accurate and timely diagnoses. GPs only to have to be knowledgeable about one species - vets tackle many.

Give me a vet any day instead of my GP who is a waffling, homeopathic-pushing, hopeless excuse for a doctor!

Well, when I worked full time I earned £27,000. (5 yrs ago)

I'm sure my boss, who owns the practice, earned far more, but I was salaried. I worked 9-7 Mon-Fri and every Saturday morning. When I say 9-7, there were (and are) many nights when we get a stitch-up in at 6.45, or a splenectomy at 6.15, so we actually work until 8 or 9pm, and get no extra pay.

Now I work 2 days a week and every 3rd sat morning (9-12) and I earn less than £10K a year. Most of the GPs I know earn considerably more (the ones that I know earn about £30K p/t)

Our consultation charge is £20.50. we too, unsurprisingly, have overheads. As well as heating/ lighting/ telephone/ wages, we have ulatsound machines, Xray machines, blood analysers, dental machines...all sorts of tech that most GPs surgeries don't have/ need

Kewcumber - I don't want to hi-jack the thread but I just thought I would reply to your comments re the comments I made about Macdoodle. I do think you have a valid point and to be honest when I was getting cross at Macdoodle's post it really did stop and make me think that I too was maybe coming across like this in relation to social work (although I have never accused people of being DM readers!) and that I maybe sounded superior and this was getting people annoyed. SO - there is a learning experience for me.

Incidentally the posts that were deleted were in relation to comments I made about the Liberal MP John Hemmings because his posts claiming that there was a conspiracy in social work to snatch children from decent parents etc made me so angry as it is so untrue, and the fact that he can put forward these sorts of things as an elected MP I think is wholly irresponsible.

Anyway sorry folks - back to the GP issue. I know this post detracts from the discussion which I find very interesting. I think the person who is talking the most sense on this thread is Mrs Bean 78 - she is absolutely spot on and posts in a concise and articulate manner.

Well, my mum's a GP and as an example of her commitment to her patients can I tell you that last Christmas Eve she went (out of hours, when she was not on duty anyway, and in between cooking dinner for 20) to visit one of her patients in order to be with her as she was dying of ovarian cancer. And she often does this. And also often goes to the funerals of patients as a mark of respect.

Further, when she started out in practice, she went on a home visit AND night visit while she was in labour with me - she made my Dad drive so she could go see this patient before going into hospital herself to have me.

Obviously, obviously, I am totally biased and I know there are many crap GPs out there - this is basically a post saying how much I love and admire my mum's dedication to her job....

In the past, I have had experience of:

1. A GP insisting that an ectopic pregnancy was cystitis. I queried this diagnosis repeatedly, but he insisted ...

1. A surgery where they routinely took the phone off the hook between 8.30 and 9.00 and refused to answer it. I had to go to the surgery to make an appointment. Much headtossing when I pointed out that I could see they'd taken the phone off the hook as it was in full view.

1. A surgery where they refused to ring up the hospital for results, even though said results were a week late. This arose when DD actually did have cystitis, and was not responding to antibiotics. I asked for the phone number so that I could ring for the results myself but that was impossible too. After a fortnight of her screaming in agony every time she went to the loo, I marched into the surgery and announced that I wasn't leaving until she'd been effectively treated.

So I do have some understanding of where the OP is coming from. I don't believe that doctors are effectively regulated or that standards of care and response are set at a reasonable level.

But an awful lot of GPs are pretty good.

Can most people really not tell what a minor ailment is? Do most people not recognise a cold and take lemsip or try gargling with soluble aspirin for a sore throat or stick a bit of tubigrip on a sprained ankle etc before going to the GP?

Of course if it persists go to your GP but surely lots of things that people tkae to a GP would go on their own within a week or so. Well that's my experience anyway.

It sounds like I have been exceptionally lucky if there are so many awful GP's out there.