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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

In regards to death due to suicide

103 replies

RedRedWine1980 · 11/03/2010 22:11

To think if people can't have some respect for the grieving family left behind they should truly shut the hell up?
Someone dies of cancer/in a car accident its 'aww thats so sad, such a tragedy' somebody comits suicide and on top of mourning that persons sad demise you have to hear people opinions on how 'selfish' and 'cowardly' it is?

OP posts:
hmc · 12/03/2010 00:11

Assumptions? - yes, mostly yours: like saying 'many aren't mentally ill'

and here

GypsyMoth · 12/03/2010 00:15

I didn't use the word 'many' and yes, I know all about these websites who attempt to collate information

hmc · 12/03/2010 00:17

NHS Direct also places mental illness right up there as a primary cause - I guess that is baloney too?

GypsyMoth · 12/03/2010 00:19

Yep, primary cause. There are others

EcoMouse · 12/03/2010 00:23

Hmc and TBB, I believe some people are and some aren't.
My dad was quite philosophical generally and I have his diaries up to his death. The entries are brief but my understanding is that he believed he was doing the right thing. His perspective was skewed in that it differs to mine but that doesn't mean he was depressed or mentally ill ...nor does it mean he was selfish.

ScreaminEagle · 12/03/2010 00:24

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hmc · 12/03/2010 00:24

Well I am pleased to see that you have now acknowledged this in contrast to your earlier post of:

"They alot of the time DO know what they are doing. They DO know the effects of their actions.

They are not all mentally ill..........."

hmc · 12/03/2010 00:26

Of course - terminally ill people are generally very cheery and not at all despondent

ScreaminEagle · 12/03/2010 00:30

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hmc · 12/03/2010 00:34

I have to respect what you say EcoMouse regarding your father as you were in a position to know....

There are always the exception to the rule that some (I suspect few) people who commit suicide are of sound mind at the time .....

However, the evidence would suggest that the majority of people who commit suicide are despairing, desolate and in a very dark place.

hmc · 12/03/2010 00:37

Semantics - I meant 'depression' SE (rather than despondent) - in the clinical sense. And yes that is a mental illness with the capacity to cloud judgement. And whilst I haven't done a comprehensive literature search to corroborate this - I would suggest that most people with a terminal illness also suffer from depression.

hmc · 12/03/2010 00:38

I am really going to have to go to bed now......it is very late.

MillyR · 12/03/2010 00:39

Surely people commit suicide because they are unbearably unhappy ( and often mentally ill as well). Are people suggesting that there is some other reason for suicide?

ScreaminEagle · 12/03/2010 00:45

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Allets · 12/03/2010 01:01

I haven't read the whole thread, but I think that people don't always say the correct thing in difficult situations. I believe that you shouldn't take other people's comments out of context - as you never know how or why their opinions were formed.

When I was 17 my 'boyfriend' - an older guy (7 years older than me), who was severely depressed and who I was convinced I could save, shot himself in the head in front of me. I was in the back seat of his car - his friend and him had just had a row in the front seat, the friend left the car in anger - I looked through the back window to see where he was going and has I turned around the gun went off.

That night changed me forever. The memories haunted me, the faces of his family. The funeral. Just all too horrific for words.

Before that night, I would have said that suicide was cowardly, the easy way out. After that night, I realised that suicide is a tragedy. It's a tragedy that any person would feel so vulnerable, out of control and desparate that they could take their own life. Not to mention the fall-out for family and friends.

It was only with hindsight and exposure to this terrible incident that I really understood the impact of suicide. There were many times that I wished I could remain ignorant and forget that damn man and his little blue car. So I absolutely understand people who are of the opinion that it's a cowardly and disgusting act.

I am so sorry for your loss
xx

EcoMouse · 12/03/2010 01:24

Hmc I agree, there are exceptions to any rule, particularly when it comes to human behaviour!

We can never know the absolute extent of emotion or reason for any individual, at the point of entering such a final act.

brightongirldownunder · 12/03/2010 01:27

Do you honestly think that even those that are of "sane" mind commit suicide through selfishness/ego/spite? For god's sake they END THEIR LIVES.

When I got the call to tell me that a great friend decided to end his life, all I felt was immense sadness - that I would never be able to laugh with him again, never receive the hilarious packages he'd send me from time to time...but also sadness that I couldn't have helped him.

I was angry that I'd lost a great buddy, angry that I'd never be able to share the same warped joke with him, angry with myself for not being a better friend after getting married. I would NEVER have felt anger towards him for what he did and his family feel the same.

Please don't judge people on their sanity, "rational thought" is not something that can be associated with suicide unless you are terminally ill IMO.

RedRedWine1980 · 12/03/2010 08:22

Dont see why its not an AIBU topic tbh....yes its happened to me twice, and I really do wonder why people feel they have the right to make such judgements

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sarah293 · 12/03/2010 08:49

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dorisbonkers · 12/03/2010 09:03

Redredwine1980

I hope you are ok, if you are close to someone who has committed suicide.

I have a unique perspective on this, as my father killed himself, and I have also attempted suicide (I hasten to add, before my father died).

I won't go into the details of each sad case, but I'd been raped abroad and was struggling with people's reactions to it and I also had a mild bi-polar episode. My father, who had hitherto been very successful, felt shame over losing his station in life (he was connected to the Equitable Life scandal) and had awful relationship problems with my mother (he was consistently unfaithful and violent) and looking back, it was obvious he had a major bi-polar disorder.

Is it a selfish act? Yes, of course it is, just by virtue of the fact that you are putting your own pain above others'. This is the case EVEN if you convince yourself. You're not taking part in society or family life at that point -- for whatever reason.

But it doesn't matter if it's selfish or not. That's all blown out of the water compared to the pain of losing someone close to you.

It's certainly not the mundane meaning of 'selfish' some people trot out.

Now there are as many different suicides are there are people and one of the awful things about suicide is that it reduces a complex human being with all their manifest ambitions, disappointments and experiences into one thing: A 'jumper' a 'drowner' (my father), a 'hanger' or whatever. It's well known that there are types of suicide that are impulsive and designed to elicit a parting shot (sorry, no pun intended) to the people they are leaving. Ones leaving lots of blood, for example.

I'm certainly angry with the note my father left. Those words about me will ring in my ears for ever. I carry them about like a housebrick in my bag.

I also feel bad for the people who found his body. That is selfish too.

But the family and friends left behind are changed forever. They've felt angry, betrayed, rejected (my lasting emotion), sad, helpless, like they never really knew that person. I've had people say trite things about selfishness. I've had my father in law refuse to come to his funeral because he thought it was selfish.

I've had people drift away and my mother has lost all her good friends. I ditched my childhood friend for shouting at my mother: "You moaned about him for half your life, you should be pleased he's gone' (she was a psychiatric nurse . The stigma with its roots in religion runs very deep.

On one level I'd rather people engaged with others on this subject than not at all, but please think carefully what you want to achieve by touting the 'selfish' label. Are you speaking aloud to yourself, getting a dig in to the deceased victim, or trying to hurt the people left behind. I know that sounds odd, but it provokes some very odd and harmful emotions and it gets projected back in all sorts of unexpected ways.

As Camus said, it is the one philosophical problem left. I'll never resolve my feelings about it. Ultimately, having been there myself, I'm glad I've seen what it can do and have vowed never to check out (even though I've felt close). I see it now as a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

My heart goes out to all those who have had to deal with this. And to those less close but who meet those who are going through it, have some grace and tact.

dorisbonkers · 12/03/2010 09:04

"This is the case EVEN if you convince yourself.... that they are better off without you" I meant to say.

ByThePowerOfGreyskull · 12/03/2010 09:06

I am seeing this thread not from the angle of someone bereaved but someone who attempted suicide 2 years ago.

At that time there were no rational, balanced, thoughts in my head, if there were I would have looked at my fabulous husband, nice house, and 2 great kids and understood all I had to live for.

as it was I was convinced that by staying I would damage them more than by going, it was a cold and calculated thought process that evolved over time, I couldn't be with them for their sake and I couldn't be alive and not be with them.
I have put my husband through more than any human should ever have to tolerate and for that I can never be sorry enough, the only thing I can do is be here and be the best Mummy/Wife/sister/friend that I can be.

For a long time I wanted to "want to be here" but I couldn't, and now I do want to be here - even though it means facing things about myself that are dispicable.

If I had succeeded I believe it would have been fair to say that to outsiders I was well and healthy and in control of all my faculties, but to my DH and in my own mind I know that I was really very mentally ill.

I am so very sorry for the loss that so many of you have suffered, bereavement with suicide brings an extra dimension, but it is still the loss of a loved one and that is a very had thing to come to terms with.

dorisbonkers · 12/03/2010 09:21

Bythepowerofgreyskull

I cried reading your thread. I guess you can really can think others will be better off and can rebuild their lives.

Yes, I have a good life, a wonderful husband (who as my boyfriend found me after my attempt and got me to hospital, so yes, he's been through a lot) and a beautiful, funny and sweet-natured little girl.

And yes, no outsider would have had a clue as to what was going on with my father, or with me when I took my overdose.

I wasn't exactly walking around depressed, or crying and that was a problem. After I was in hospital my mother considered what I'd done to be an adolescent act of rebellion. Maybe it was. I don't know.

I'm glad you said what you did because its reminded me of what a great man my DH is and at the moment because of the treadmill of part-time work and a co-sleeping baby, I've not felt that close to him. So I'll hug him close tonight.

RedRedWine1980 · 12/03/2010 09:25

Wow Dorisbonkers thats terrible- so sorry for your loss

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SolidGoldBrass · 12/03/2010 10:07

IO agree 100% that people should try not to say stupid, hostile things to the bereaved family when anyone dies. There is a very strong case to be made for people who are not closely connected with someone who has died, or their family or friends, to just say 'Sorry for your loss' and then SHUT THE FUCK UP. This is equally true of making selfrighteous pronouncements about a suicide or someone whose death was due to addiction of some kind, or twee bullshit about the dead person being 'in a better place' - NOT everyone is religious and when you have just been bereaved, superstitious platitudes from someone who hasn't bothered to check whether you believe in an afterlife or not are maddening. Thing is, though, sometimes within the bereaved family there are polarised opinions on someone who has taken his/her own life. Especially if it was one of those ghastly situations whereupon there is a strong possibility that the person hadn't actually intended to die, that the 'suicide attempt' was meant to end in a dramatic rescue and the solving of a problem (a lover coming back, another family member changing a decision, whatever) but somehow the person miscalculated what s/he was doing or how long something would take to work.