"Its just not black and white"

[Mscombobulated]

Is what Dermot Gavin said at the end of Rich Famous and Jobless last night.

I watched it, despite my better judgement. I judged despite my better judgement.

If you watched it last night you will remember the family on benefits. I was that this family had 5 children and one on the way, whilst on benefits. There was no discipline in the house, no one seemed to care that children were up until 3am and the father seemed like a layabout - they all looked, quite frankly, unhealthy - Dermot walked out, on his moral high horse - and i was right along with him. The next day he went back and spoke to the family and the bombshell was dropped about the loss of their little boy I felt bad. What i saw as a bunch of scroungers turned into the saddest thing i had ever watched - they kept having more children, it was like they wanted to block out their sadness - they blatantly can't cope, the only thing they can do is have more children - the man has lost control of his life - he didn't WANT to go and get a job, after all, what is the point - he held his dying baby in his arms and carried his coffin. No mention of any counselling for this family - my heart broke for them. So what does dermot do - sends him knocking on doors begging for work

Which leads me to how i feel the benefits system in this country is letting down the poor and letting down the tax payer.

If you are on benefits and you take on work - your benefits stop, obviously. But if you then come out of work, your benefits don't start immediately, you have to wait a stupid amount of time before you get any state aid. So - this guy, he knocks on doors, maybe he might get a few weeks work - fantastic, but he is being forced by the system to fiddle the system - if he declares the work he will lose his benefits, but not just for the time he is working. Is there any wonder there is a "whats the point" culture in this country - this has been the case for as long as i can remember, from past experience and from people i know, from the media - why has this not been addressed?

'you would have at least had the wits to know where to ask.'

Untrue entirely.

I don't ask for help. I'm not that kind of person and I was too ill to do so at my worst.

Every single time, it's been brought to the attention of authorities other than by me.

Everyone knows I'm definitely in favour of benefits.

But again, in situations like this (and particularly in the form of men who stay on JSA for donks to avoid contributing to the support of their own children), you have to admit there are really, sadly, people who use it as a lifestyle choice.

oh, yes, sadly i do have to admit that - ive witnessed it loads of times

Anyway wont be watching that program again, it was horrid - that guy from eastenders actually made my skin crawl.

The single mother on it gave all single mums a bad name - didn't want to do voluntary work because she is a "spender"

Was vague about the prisoner guy but i quite liked the woman - never heard of her, but thought she was the most genuine of them all.

A whole load of my immediate family use it as a lifestyle choice! Gets on my nerves, and they love winding me up about it every time I see them. Mind you, the council did build one part of the family a 6 bedroom, brand new house to house their growing family into (and yes it hit the local papers but they didnt mind - its all died down and they have their house). Theyve never worked a day in their lives (both parents) and if their dancing at family gatherings is anything to go by there is no physical reason that they cant (although one of them is apparently on disability for a bad back)! As they frequently tell dh and I - who are the idiots.

I think it's a horrible programme and I won't be watching it, either.

It's disgusting.

Meg Matthews? FFS. That's scraping the bottom of the barrel.

I dont agree with you there frogety - there is a sense of achievement and community which your relations will never feel, having never actually contributed. There is more to working than just the money. I should think that if they were my family i would be "shopping" them

Mscombobulated - one of their parents did actually shop them! It didnt go anywhere although they did get investigated. They dont miss any sense of achievement and community to be honest from not working. I sell them badly and in fact they are nice people - just a bit lazy with a sense of entitlement. However, they have a great life - loads of family gatherings, meet each other for picnics in the park or at the lakes each week, spend a lot of time with their (very happy to be fair) children.

expat, there certainly are people who exploit the system (I know of someone whose mother seems to be currently raising the child she had in her teens to get her apartment), but not all people do, and not all people with depression have easy access to the NHS system.

My Dp has depression, and was offered CBT - on six week batch of sessions after being whacked on anti-depressants. It worked for the six weeks he had the sessions, but had no effect afterwards, and the drugs did nothing but give him side effects. He deteriorated to the point where he could no longer attend appointments, because he was literally shaking at the thought of leaving the house. So they wrote him off. And having asked for real counselling, we were presented with a long referral form to fill out (after a six week wait) after which we had an indeterminable wait to get an appointment. By the time my DP got the form he was in no state to fill it out, and forcing him to go will achieve nothing, becaue he has traumatic memories of forced councelling as a child. He needs help that is tailored to him, and that is something the NHS does not provide.

It isn't a simple as saying 'they should just get help'. Of course they should get help. The trouble is that if they do, there's every chance that it won't be the type of help they need.

I know that, Tott! I've been on this board since 2004 and have dealt with very serious depression since 2003.

Yes, there are many faults in the system.

BUT it all goes beyond this, because this man and his partner are neglecting their children.

Now I'll have to hear everyone's personal anecdote about depression and how it's an excuse for just about every type of behaviour under the sun.

The show's crap, but there does need to be some reform of the benefits system in the long-term, particularly when used by absent parents to get out of paying to contribute to the support of their children.

Sapphiore87 - I have never been on benefits myself. My husband and I both work for just above the minimum wage (Me £6 and him £6.50). I went back to uni 10 days after my daughter was born and back to work after 3 months. I would never claim benefits if I am able to work. I get much less than all the otherpeople I know who are on benefits. I know single mums that get as much or more than me and my husband and they have never worked.

We are a young family and live with our kids in a 2 bed flat but I would rather live in a small space and know I am working all the hours god sends than claim benefits from the government. So when people say why work when you can claim benefits? I think its a disgrace if I have to live in this flat forever I will as at least it is honest and not taking away peoples taxes that could be used for the NHS or helping others.

My SIL's never worked, nor has her ex-partner who is in his 40s.

She was put on JSA because her two kids were over 7.

She's due another baby in April.

I watched both episodes of this programme and I thnk the phrase "Its just not that black and white" was a pretty profoud summary of how the system really is.

There are people who sponge and fiddle the benefits system. That makes my blood boil because there are other people who very clearly are in desperate need and want to provide for themselves but the system beats them down if they are honest. It is vernal, cruel, wasteful and inefficient.

Personally, I think the system of benefits and taxes is unreformable and needs to be scrapped and rebuilt. I hope that some of the ideas Ian Duncan Smith has put together will be implemented if the Tories get voted in.

paolo sometimes the need for benefits is permanent; I would adore a job, but will probably be a carer fo ever. Whilst I accept that the country can't afford to pay me mroe I trult can't see why I deserve less than anyone else, I truly can't. My life is pretty hard at times- there's a thread by me in Chat todsay where I am probably whinging but still- I don;'t think we deserve any less than anyone.

however I do feel there should be more emphasis on finding routes out of benefits trap: making it easier for people to fund retraining in FE colleges or elsewhere- an example is that as I have a degree I cannot ever get free training agin; as a carer I cannot work outside school hours / hols ever; the logical answer is TA worl, here we need training, I can't afford the training (DH is working but on a very low income)

There are people playing the system but equally there are people trying to find a way out and that should be supported, atm attitudes and regs don't do that

It simply comes back to the same thing - benefits need to be there to support those that genuinely need them. Obviously carers are working full time anyway. Those who lose their jobs need help whilst finding another. Those genuinely ill need help while they recover. However, it cannot be denied that there are a huge raft of people who could work but dont. I could work more now to be honest, and when we were getting tax credits as I was working very few hours (16 or so) I could certainly have worked more and funded ourselves more. Its easy not to though if the money is available to claim.

My Uncle lost his firstborn when she was ficec after a pretty much lifelong battle with leukaemia. he coped at first- helepd set up a good charity that stilla chieves much- but it was temporary and although he has had many jobs he inevitably got sacked from each one becuase of the mental health problems that developed afterwards, and that have seen him sectioned repeatedly.

he also lost his marriage and custody of the yonger child.

Bereavement affects people differently adn it can take years to move past, but it is doable with proper help. however, sometimes that can take years on a waiting list to access- at our GPs patients are entitled to see a counsellor, just be aware that she's been on LT sick over a year and has a rather significant backlog........

It's been decades since I was last properly unemployed, after recovering from an accident, but the caseworker input was minimal and I suspect that hasn;t changed. However if the actual reasons behind the situation could be identified once it got past say six months, and that dealt with rather than issueing payments in return for attendance at job hunting classes where you read papers you had anyway and do nothing, then something might just change.

Some wopuld frogety, TC's have no way of knowing who could though

DH works 16 hours: not much- except he is in college for 37 hours a week as well, with another 20 hours or more on projects etc (he is mroe grafter than gifted IYSWIM- excellent amrks based entirely on effort rather than natural ability with a pen; fortunately his field is not invloving pens very much).

On paper however it would look like he works a minimum: of course when he gets home he has to help with the boyos too (2 disabled children both needing 1-1... not the usual bed / bath help).

On paper slacker, in real life grafter (redundancy last year)

Which probably does come back to government staff skilled to find out the relaity of course, although as Dh is self employed he never sees anyone anyway

I had a good job.

My DD got cancer so I had to give it up.

She was very ill and suffered a great deal for two years and then died.

I felt unable get back into work. I could barely function TBH. The only option for me was to go onto incapacity benefit. We had been getting by on DD's DLA and carers allowance and as OH can only work limited hours we had to try and access something.

Being on IB was incredibly humilating and depressing. I had to keep proving I was depressed enough to merit it and I felt embarrassed because so much was being made of those with mental illness milking the system.

After about 18mths I had to go for yet another 'medical'. I sobbed all the way through and could hardly speak. I got a letter two weeks later telling me my IB had been stopped a week previously and I was no longer entitled to claim.

I was terrified. I had to go on JSA although I was nowhere near ready to get back to work. Everytime I saw someone at the JB (always someone different) I had to explain my situation and they would just stare at me and say stuff like 'you cant work!' Some would cry (yes really) but none could do anything about it.

I eventually found a lovely job which just covered what I had lost on IB and was only 10 hrs a week. I was lucky. If I had been forced to go into a less appropriate job I think I would probably had a total breakdown.

There is nothing for us when we lose our children. I didnt neglect my children but I was not the parent I was before. Me and OH got by and our surviving children were fed and clothed and got to school and we love them. I have gone on to have another baby with another on the way. My OH didnt want more children before DD got sick but he didnt bat an eyelid when I wanted more after she died. I dont think its unnatural to want more of the only thing that can ever give you real happiness.

Its not black and white. I am sorry the children on the programme are not being cared for properly. Grief can be all consuming, it can take up so much energy and lleave nothing over for anything else. They sound like they need help.

Thankyou for posting that chegirl - you are truly an inspirational member of this site. Congratulations on your pregnancy, your DD, whereever she is, must be very proud of her mum xx

MsComb. I already have. It was them that gave me the figures I have. We'll see.

How do we {the country} make it worth while to go back to work without making it unliveable for those who have no choice but to not work?

It's so hard to see a way

Beronze I honestly don't know how you do that, AFAICS the choice is to either accept the lazy ones and not make us (carers etc) suffer or the reverse, I know many who would happily see the reverse becuase all they see is their taxes going to help us- well we do pay them but very minimal becuase out turnover is at present, and we paid them constanly for twenty years- and obviously we did not choose to have two children too disabled to access childcare (well one could only beciuase there is a specialist CM who adores him), ds1 could not without risking otehr childrens safety.

My take is whilst I understand its tough for everyone atm, we've been punished enough becuase of the effects of the ASD- not sure how much more poverty / stress / feeling like scroungers our marriage could take tbh. Or my sanity, which is slowly ebbing away.

Chegirl that ws one of the most emotional and well written posts I have ever read on MN. Bless you all. You are an amazing mother and everything I have ever read about your DD indicated she adored you and that you amde her illness bearable. That's a wonderful gift X