"Its just not black and white"

[Mscombobulated]

Is what Dermot Gavin said at the end of Rich Famous and Jobless last night.

I watched it, despite my better judgement. I judged despite my better judgement.

If you watched it last night you will remember the family on benefits. I was that this family had 5 children and one on the way, whilst on benefits. There was no discipline in the house, no one seemed to care that children were up until 3am and the father seemed like a layabout - they all looked, quite frankly, unhealthy - Dermot walked out, on his moral high horse - and i was right along with him. The next day he went back and spoke to the family and the bombshell was dropped about the loss of their little boy I felt bad. What i saw as a bunch of scroungers turned into the saddest thing i had ever watched - they kept having more children, it was like they wanted to block out their sadness - they blatantly can't cope, the only thing they can do is have more children - the man has lost control of his life - he didn't WANT to go and get a job, after all, what is the point - he held his dying baby in his arms and carried his coffin. No mention of any counselling for this family - my heart broke for them. So what does dermot do - sends him knocking on doors begging for work

Which leads me to how i feel the benefits system in this country is letting down the poor and letting down the tax payer.

If you are on benefits and you take on work - your benefits stop, obviously. But if you then come out of work, your benefits don't start immediately, you have to wait a stupid amount of time before you get any state aid. So - this guy, he knocks on doors, maybe he might get a few weeks work - fantastic, but he is being forced by the system to fiddle the system - if he declares the work he will lose his benefits, but not just for the time he is working. Is there any wonder there is a "whats the point" culture in this country - this has been the case for as long as i can remember, from past experience and from people i know, from the media - why has this not been addressed?

There is zero way she could get DLA that fast. I agree!

That application is huge and takes ages to fill out and then you wait for weeks or months for it to be processed.

They must have been asylum seekers because even British people who have been living abroad have restrictions on how quickly they can claim benefits after returning to the UK.

Why has it turned into an asylum seekers thread, when asylum seekers CANNOT even claim benefits!

MS yes i agree it never is black or white, there is always a grey area.

I didnt see the TV show you are talking about, but would agree for most long term unemployed it must be soul destroying.

Just seen this programme on iplayer. I thought it heartbreaking that the reason given for the soon-to-be-six children was that 'he wanted a big family'. Those children did not look well-cared for, running about until well after midnight, and even when they were in bed, that little girl's bed had no sheets. Yet they lived in a 6-bedroom house and received £29,000 per year in benefits.

I see no way out for families like this; where's their incentive to work?

To get away from asylum seekers......

I work with a Mum of one child (very abusive ex) who is an ex drug addict. She privately rents (housing benefit of £700 - she pays the other £50) Council tax benefit plus income support etc - she takes in around £850 a month from which she has to do electricity, water everything else. Interestingly £850 is my take home pay - I am just over the threshold for housing benefit as I get tax credit but on paper at least she is financially better off than me.

However, for her to get OFF benefits she would need to earn a salary of at least £1600 a month in order to take on her rent/council tax etc - the jobs are just not out there. Perhaps instead we should be asking why wages are so poor in this country that getting off of benefits is such a struggle.

I didn't see the TV show but DID see the other one about British and migrant workers which seemed to suggest many of our unskilled unemployed are actually not that employable. Not sure how true that is or if it was just the way the show was edited (probably).

but straw, did you get the reason why he wanted a big family?

Does it matter, Ms? He can't look after them. I hope SS has stepped in. I don't get these people who can't even be bothered to put sheets on the kids' bed and I've suffered from deep, severe PND and clinical depression for nearly 7 years.

Many people lose a child every day.

But it's not the government's responsibility to assuage their grief.

Adult people have to take responsibility for themselves and their actions at one point or another and if they can't or won't there needs to be a limit on what financial support they get from the government.

I agree expat - but surely if supporting families makes a difference, then im happy for a proportion of my tax to go towards that

They're getting tens of thousands a year in financial support and have full access to teh NHS, which does indeed offer counselling upon referral from a GP.

What more 'support' do they need?

When does support become enabling?

MsC, I am happy for a proportion of my taxes to go towards helping families on low incomes or temporarily unemployed and also to other people who need help for whatever reason, but I did watch that programme last night and although of course it was sad that this couple had lost a child I don't think the solution is to have another six that you are unable to support. There is not really a way out for them either. Let's be honest, if you had a 6 bedroom house and £29500 after tax income for doing bugger all, there is no incentive to go out and earn less money is there?

I dont know how they get that much? Genuinely confused. My husband has just be told hes being made redundant (currently on notice period) When doing the calculations with help from a lady at entitledto over the phone we worked out we would get about 9000 (plus assistance with mortgage after a bit but not all) we have 4 children. So how do they get 29k? To be honest I'm grateful we'll be able to feed our kids if none of his interviews work out but I am completely puzzled as to how these things are calculated and was using us as a comparison

Those poor kids though. I know there is help for them but someone needs to be upfront with the parents before its too late for the children.

its a horrible cycle.

dont get me wrong, the government get so much wrong. so very, very, very wrong in some cases.
but at the same time, my mind BOGGLES at all the different little things they have to handle and all the rules and where and when and why and who and how much.

the problem is, is our society has grown so the WHOLE country is dependant on someone else/the government for their own problems., not just those on benefits.
"why cant they do this/that"
there's not enough brainspace in politicians heads sadly.

bronze, I was very surprised at the amount. It does include housing benefit. You can watch it on iplayer and Diarmud asks them how much they are given and they list it all - might be worth a look to see if you have been told about everything.

MissAnne I think we'll find out more when the jobcentre are willing to discuss it with us after dh is officially jobless. Of course I hope this never happens and he gets one of the jobs hes applied for.

I have this ep. recorded and have watched some I'll have to watch the rest now though I'm feeling a bit carcrashish about it. (their list may well help- tis a whole other world)

Bronze - a lot of it may be housing benefit or extra for disability benefits. My mil is on various disability benefits etc and she gets almost as much as we do and we both work. My sil worked part time, her dh worked full time and 2 dc. They really struggled financially eventually leading to a split. As a non working single parent she had money for the first time left in her pocket - partly due to the very high rents in this area which her and her dh had to pay out of wages, but once she was on benefits it was paid for her. She will probably stay on them now as she says herself she is much better off than she ever has been in her adult life (she does work to the income limit - cant remember what that is but a few thousand pounds). She intends to work again as the dc come up to school leaving age (if the government doesnt force her into work sooner!).

"But it's not the government's responsibility to assuage their grief."

Yes it is. If the grief turns into long term depression, the NHS is under an obligation to treat it.

Think jollpirate has spoken the most sense here.

It is a case of either wages being too low or housing costs being to high.

We must address that balance, preferably by lowering housing costs. Taxing second homes out of existence, discouraging buy to let schemes, compulsory purchase orders for vacant builidings, increasing social housing stock etc.

'Yes it is. If the grief turns into long term depression, the NHS is under an obligation to treat it.'

And they have access to that! There are SO many resources out there, it's really mind-blowing, and I come from a place where there's very little public support so see it as even more of a boon.

The £29K figure may or may not be outside of housing benefit/local housing allowance, particularly if he or one or more of the children are considered disabled, if he gets ESA, etc.

But with six children, child tax credit, child benefit, if they get any DLA or he gets JSA with a disability element, £29K is not inconceivable.

Unfortunately, it is not always so easy to access those resorces.

My DP is depressed. The first battle is getting the man to admit he has a problem (not always easy with an old fashioned chap) then you have to assume you'll get a sympathetic GP, then push for the right treatment.....

This on top of dealing with the problems which depression causes anyway.

The state of mental health care in this country is appalling. Waiting lists are too long, far too much of a reliance on drugs (it's cheap) and there is still a stigma attached to mental illness.

Amber - agree with you on taxing second homes, compulsory purchase of vacant buildings, increasing social housing - but dont get how discouraging buy to let would help. Surely people have to have landlords to rent off?

discouraging buy to let would help bring down house price inflation.

Yeah totally agree it is so deffo not black and white it is more .."purple and orange and gold, I can sing a rainbow, sing a rainbow sing a rainbow too!" And that Diarmuid he's a dirty shitey colour from mucking around in other people's gardens

Old English - agree there would be more houses on the market therefore house prices would fall. But surely rents would go up dramatically as there would be fewer properties to rent? Where are all those people renting going to go if there are fewer buy to lets. Not everybody in rented accomodation has enough money to buy, or indeed the wish to, even if house prices drop a lot.

expat, i do agree with you (i'm LEM btw so i know your history and you know mine ) But to be fair, you are clearly an articulate and intelligent woman, and whilst depression is crippling, you would have at least had the wits to know where to ask. I just think there are certain members of society who are, for want of a better word, "not very bright" and they might not be able to articulate their needs quite so well.

bronze, take a look at the website Entitledtoo.com - it does give some guidance as to what you might be entitled to. Have you a mortgage? Speak to them now, let them know you might have some difficulties, they are very understanding if you talk to them - i hope your DH gets a job really really soon x

Who knows, maybe those people would have been in the same situation even if they hadn't lost their child but if that is all they have been raised to expect, its very difficult to break the cycle i should imagine.