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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

aibu in thinking that the couples on the news

363 replies

TheUsefulSuspect · 02/03/2010 22:43

shouldn't have had a first child, let alone a second if they think there 1 Bedroom flat is insufficient.

Why do they think they deserve to be rehoused?

OP posts:
Portofino · 03/03/2010 15:50

But we're talking a small minority aren't we for these super huge families? Just as these are a minority now.

I know they are in the DM all the time, but I personally know of only one. The mum did have issues and SS were involved. I'm sure they are not THAT common place. (Tell me if I'm wrong).

Most sensible people cut their cloth accordingly. So in most cases, the knowledge that support is finite would stop a lot of families from thinking, "well, one more won't cost a lot extra, and/or we'll get more benefits anyway"

Or they could choose to have the extra baby but manage on their resources/find work/better job etc

PreachyPeachyRantsALot · 03/03/2010 15:55

Sorry- doing a point per post, esierst with the boys all home you see.

porto, I am sure Nan didnt want 16 either- some were twins (3 sets IIRC though dad dosn't even know all his siblings names, many were gone by the time he was born, got to 16 and ran) but she felt it was a religious obligation.

And yes I woudl always advocate state manoevre with comlex famillies but have been told on Mn that people who don;t fit the boxes are unfortunate but cost too much to cater for.

We have 4, we enver expected anyone to have to help us. At any time previosuly we were both in pay so if one lost a job (as happened at times) the otehr had to cope. Then me bneing a carer pulled me out and Dh lost his job. I know you re not proposing retrospective maction but I can see how someone else could amke what tehy thought was a responsible decision and then find as we have that life is unpredictable.

I shall never regret DS4: he ahs brought much life to us and tbh as I am marroned at home anyway doesn't cost that much in real terms- he's in our room, eats what we do etc. More that that though after eyars of real terrible times- the two boy's dx- he brought a real ray of sunchine: both to us as parents and to the other children- ds2 as a sibling not significantly affected by SN (( abig deal as they age no doubt) and the things he has taught ds1 and ds3 (the asd duo) are iMO far more than any therapy.

Our poorest ever point was when ds3 was born: basically we were both working on good jobns, then just as I went on mat Leave dh was not only laid off but the boss refused to pay anyone- we weren't wntitled to redundany (under a year) but even that pay month and an awful lot of overtime. I cclearly couldn't work for a while becuase of being PG / delviering, and it took ACAS 6 months to get our money for us. In that time the only way we could survive was to sell our home and move into rented, it cleared every penny debt we incurred whilst nothing was coming in but was hell and left DH with MH issues that took months to resolve and delayed my return to work for childcare.... you see how it escalated? In the end dh found a great job and I neer went back becuase I went back to college but by then finances were sorted (mainoy hosue sale).

It ws only when ds1 was 6 and ds3 was 4 that they were dx'd so although I did know cxaring for them was harder than average I wasn't a carer as such IYSWIM: I got my degree in that time but couldn't follow either teaching or social work as planned due to their needs.

I gguess as a result of our experiences, none borne from fecklessness or a desire to cost anyone, I am very wary of any policy that can affect people at what can be very vulneravle times, as becoming benefit dependent almost always is.

bernadetteoflourdes · 03/03/2010 15:55

I had an abortion 19 years ago, and strike ne dead as I say this it was a no brainer, we had lowpaid jobs and a 1 bed flat which was tiny. We saved up for the prospect of kids, amazing saving for something isn't it. I am afraid I don,t regret the abortion it was quick painless lovely staff but ruined by some mad antiabortionist ranting that "I would be cursed and woul die a horrid death and childless". (These were loony protestors outide the Clinic) well here I am years later with 3 fab kids (Ihad the first at 34)
Saving up was hard but we did it with no help from the state (save for a small grant for re-training) We were poor but we did it
cerealqueen you are talking through you a--e having a baby is not getting a new handag and being poor is not an ecuse to have the state prop you up. The op is right and me being so judgy is my right as I come at it from the perspective of a poor working class female not an upper middle class Daily Mail reader. On another note why dont East Enders show Ian Beale's daughter considering an abortion and exploring it intelligently and responsibly, it is such a taboo subject
I feel no guilt and I am Catholic

PreachyPeachyRantsALot · 03/03/2010 15:58

They're not- there's only 3 famillies of 4 at our school- but they are* over represented in the more vulnerable sections I think. I knew of a few becuase I was paid to (my definition of vulnerable was not poor btw- I was a apid Homestart manager so my famillies were a mix of all classes, PND / disability / bereavement / etc not respecting financial boundaries after all). But when hard times hit they hit the alrgert famillies hardest- becxuase if (for eg) your spouse dies at 30, it's so much mroe to cope with when you ahve seven than three, but who thinks their wife will die at that age?

plus it is obvious that the more kids you have the more likely to have oine with SN.

2old4thislark · 03/03/2010 15:58

bernadetteoflourdes Again well said. No one seems to dare mention the abortion word on here.

PreachyPeachyRantsALot · 03/03/2010 15:59

Bernadette I am g;lad it worked out for you, I couldn't do it. It's not soemthing that can work for everyone it just is not: plenty of p[eople who ahve ended up with PTSD as a result (and of course a great many without as well)

PreachyPeachyRantsALot · 03/03/2010 16:00

(I am also WC estae girl btw if we are making distinctions- not catholic but Christian and practising)

bernadetteoflourdes · 03/03/2010 16:16

Preachy there is an awful lot of propaganda surrounding terminations and I'm afraid it mostly comes from the anti brigade, I was scared stiff when I went in and came out immensly releived the staff were the kindest nicest medics ever, and I knew it was the best decision for us. My sis was a Nurse in the NHS and of all the few people I told she was the nastiest and most judgemental and
she defines herself as an atheist these days.
2old4thislark xxxxx thanks for the kind wwords.

bernadetteoflourdes · 03/03/2010 16:20

sorry girls my awful typos am eating rocky road, v. sticky

MorrisZapp · 03/03/2010 16:21

I had same experience as bernadette. Got PG when I was young, single, living in a rented flat. There was no decision to agonise over - there was simply no question of continuing with the pregnancy. I had an early termination, was perfectly fine, and then I moved on, was more careful with contraception and life went back to normal. I never even think about it now.

But they never show this on telly, they show weeping, wailing drama and heart wrenching decisions etc. I suspect my experience is actually the more common.

sarah293 · 03/03/2010 16:23

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MorrisZapp · 03/03/2010 16:30

Lots of people couldn't/ wouldn't have a termination, and that is absolutely their business.

But wouldn't logic dictate that if termination was an absolute no-no, then failsafe contraception would be an absolute must?

sarah293 · 03/03/2010 16:38

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bernadetteoflourdes · 03/03/2010 17:08

morrisZapp I wholeheartedly agree. It is not for everone but it is not as frightening as it is depicted, I had a small mole removed from my leg and that was much more painful and I felt v.low a scared afterwards as Ihad to wait ages for my results.The few people I know who have owned up to terminations have all said tht condoms broke
condoms may help against stds but they are lousy at preventing pregnancies and have you seen the flaming price of them. Young people need this info and maybe the govt should change their message and fully get across all the choices and not tiptoe around abortion. It is performed to the very highest medical standards in this country and thank God we are not back in the 1950's
and persecuting the Vera Drake's of this world!

BritFish · 03/03/2010 17:22

MorrisZapp:
exactly. exactly exactly exactly.
if you are against abortion, use a pill. use a condom. use a cap. use something.
i know a girl of 18 who has just given birth to her second child.
when she became pregnant with her first, she wanted a termination but then found an anti-abortion site and changed her mind.
shes just had her second, and 'didnt really bother' with contraception, yet calls her DD her 'happy little accident'
umm....

[the reason i know all this is because she went to school with my DS, so i know her poor loving mum, who is unfortunately one of those who must give you the intimate squishy details...]

MorrisZapp · 03/03/2010 17:35

Getting seriously off topic aren't we but yes, I know what you mean.

My sister's ex had a one night stand behind her back and got the OW pregnant.

The OW couldn't have a termination becuase of her religion.

Oh right, the 'it's ok to shag somebody without contraception on a one night stand, even when you know he has a partner already, but you must not have a termination' religion? Which one is that, remind me?

None of my business of course but I dunno, there seems to be quite a bit of picking and choosing what icky things some people 'just could not do'.

sarah293 · 03/03/2010 18:17

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BritFish · 03/03/2010 18:19

lets not start on religion, or this thread really will blow up!

but yes, you're quite right.

Tortington · 03/03/2010 18:23

St. Paul ( bit of a tosser in my humble catholic opinion)He states that anyone who commits these sins shall not enter the kingdom of God. "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness,

as well as

The voluntary murder (Genesis 4:10)
The sin of impurity against nature ?Sodomy and homosexual relations (Genesis 18:20)
Taking advantage of the poor (Exodus 2:23)
Defrauding the workingman of his wages (James 5:4)

i am well screwed. anyway i put that up there becuase i was looking up whether adultery was a mortal sin. i know abortion is considered murder - and i knew that was.

Tortington · 03/03/2010 18:27

yes sorry - no religeon completely off topic.

i am a firm believer that anyone can have an accidental pregancy - but when you do it twice i'm a bit about it and if you do it three times - get fecking steralised. jeez

and the pill that is supposed to be 98% effective is ALWAYS the one that i hear if the contributing factor to accidental pregnancies.

i wouldn't trust it if all the anecdotal evidence i heard about accidental pregnancies were true.

ditto condoms.

so in short - if you don't want another child in this day and age, you should be able to not have one IMO.

multiple births excepting - cos you can't really plan for twins

Mumcentreplus · 03/03/2010 18:49

..abortion a kin to having a mole removed?...ookay

Erm and any young person can get condoms FREE from the local clinic..to me preganancy is not the worse thing that can happen..how bout AIDs?

Tortington · 03/03/2010 18:55

lots or rubbish things can happen far worse than pregnancy - but pregnancy is pretty likley if your a 16 year old on a shagfest.

Portofino · 03/03/2010 19:05

Preachy, I know there are exceptions to everything. Your's is a good case in point, as is Riven's, where 2 highly educated and potential high earners are thrown the wild card. I know you both love your dcs dearly and wouldn't be without them. And I know there are many others on MN in the same boat.

I don't want to "legislate out" anyone's family. But on the other hand, I think that, in general, people have become TOO reliant on the State. People get away with making poor decisions (time and time again in some cases) because there is always some there to pick up the slack.

If people were forced to take more responsibility for themselves, I honestly believe everyone would be better off in the long run. Not least because there would be more in the pot for people who really NEED the help.

A common argument is that we need these dcs, the future tax payers, to pay for us in our old age. But what use is an increasing underclass of under-educated, potentially non-tax paying dcs. There are families where generations don't contribute. The immigrants that take the jobs our young ones don't want to do will NOT be paying our pensions.

The whole lot needs overhauling, the minimum wage, the tax bands, tax credits etc etc. People need financial help and encouragement to work. I was shocked on a recent thread, where someone did some sums about benefits. Turned out, as a single parent, you were much better off (relatively speaking) with more than one child. And generally speaking, always better off not working, than working. If I was in that situation, well who knows....

It needs a complete sort out, but no-one dares fiddle too much, as they will lose votes.

Mumcentreplus · 03/03/2010 19:11

I'm postitive its a fact Custy..but you must ask yourself why you need to be having a shagfest at 16?...tis not the law ..protect yourself from both STDs and Pregnancy if you must fest..slapping yourself on the pill /sticking in coil is not the answer..

Portofino · 03/03/2010 19:17

I think we need more Nunneries! I for one, will be seeking a Nunnery for dd, between the ages of 12 16 and 21.