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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think losing a baby at 22 weeks is potentially as hard as losing a baby at full term?

138 replies

onemissing · 01/03/2010 00:40

Not much more to add really....having been through the former, I'm often confronted with comments alluding to an earlier loss being "easier" than a later or full term one.

Wondering what you lot think, really.

OP posts:
confuddledDOTcom · 01/03/2010 23:58

I had a tear drop sticker (from SANDS) on my notes so they knew, but they still spoke about her as a miscarriage.

I had one woman play how many times can you say miscarriage in one sentence! I've had MWs in their shock that I had a live birth start asking questions - it was actually funny just watching her or I would have been angry!

chegirlshadabloodynuff · 02/03/2010 17:42

I wish they had a system for everyone who has lost a child. I know my DD was a teenager but her illness and loss has had a huge impact on my subsequent pregnancies.

Everything from needing to know if I am having a girl or boy to not being able to imagine that I could possibly have a healthy baby because 'good things cant happen'.

I am also incredibly anxious around hospitals etc.

I find myself blurting out private stuff to bewildered staff who cant always make the connection. I admit its not obvious - 14 year old dying of cancer/pg 1 year - 4 years later.

My friend 'qualified' for a tear because her beautiful boy was 18mths old when he died. There doesnt seem to be anything for other types of child loss.

Please dont think I am saying those of you who have suffered baby loss are luckier than me. I am so glad that some advances have been made in the care of women who have previously lost babies. I would just make things a tiniest bit easier for me if something was developed for older child losses.

travellingwilbury · 02/03/2010 17:58

Che I didn't know that they had an age limit on the tear . Tbh I had one put on my notes by my midwife and it made no bloody difference whatsoever . Pretty much everyone still asked me if it was mt first .

You can put all the stickers and info on the notes as you like but if people are too impatient to spend 2 minutes reading your notes then what is the point ?

I can also remember having to go in for an op within a yr of my ds dying and I took in his photo for my room . Do you think that the nurses mentioned the fact he had died less than a yr earlier and so don't ask how old he is ? No they didn't .
I must have had to explain 10 times a day that my son had died . Not good for me or for the person I was telling .

I do think I am going to go and do a stupid things people have said thread in bereavement because I am ranting .

confuddledDOTcom · 02/03/2010 19:38

I'm amazed they put an age limit on! The only detail on the sticker is the date.

I agree that no one seems to read the notes, you can point things out and remind them of things and nothing happens - I guess it's part of why I wanted to be a Doula!

I know someone who has one half of a twin who doesn't know about twin 2. Child goes in for an operation and doctor sees notes says "Twin 1" on the folder, so comes over and says "So ... I see you're a twin" all the adults are shaking their heads and gesturing at him. Fortunately the operation the child was going in for was for hearing loss so the comment was missed! Apparently he has twins himself which was why he mentioned it. But why is that still on the notes 6 years later?

chegirlshadabloodynuff · 02/03/2010 19:44

TW

I didnt mean to imply there was an offical age cut off point but the tear was introduced by SANDS so its understandable that it wouldnt be used for older children. (I suppose).

I am forever telling people about DD. Their reactions can be pretty upsetting and I have to tell them 'its ok'. Well it isnt but I dont want to get into a whole thing with them.

confuddled I have this problem with DS as he is adopted. We dont hide his adoption from him but we dont feel its appropriate to endlessly discuss the finer details infront of him and this is done all the time! I have a file with this mentioned in it but no one bothers to read it.

confuddledDOTcom · 02/03/2010 19:54

I can't see that SANDS would be happy for the sticker to be refused to someone who has lost an older child. I can see why it may be harder (or seen to be) to be pregnant when you've lost a baby in or shortly after pregnancy but it's still got to be hard going through pregnancy when you've lost a baby however old they are.

chegirlshadabloodynuff · 02/03/2010 20:22

I dont think SANDS would mind. I think its more that it wouldnt be thought of IYSWIM. The connection just isnt made.

Of course people are always sympathetic. I just feel that they think its a bit odd that I mention it in relation to pg.

knowmyrights · 02/03/2010 20:45

That tear thing was bloody useless. One of my babies died in the womb at 32 weeks, and I had to go on for another 3 + weeks before the babies could be delivered (all the time being told that the survivor's chances were 50/50 anyway because they shared one placenta) - and what did I get every single appointment despite the fact it said IN GREAT BIG CAPITALS on the front of my file that one of the babies had died?

Yes, you guessed it - "oh you're having twins", blah blah about the delivery, followed by complete shock by my telling them that yes, but one of the babies was dead. Read the file people, or maybe even open your eyes to the woman collapsed in a heap not looking exactly overjoyed to be at the appointment.

And for subsequent pregnancies he didn't even count - I was always 1 + 1,2, 3 etc because that pregnancy resulted in one live birth (the first 1 was for a previous mc).

MadameCastafiore · 02/03/2010 20:52

You can't quantify grief - I've spent my life trying to figure out whether losing my mother at 11 months was better as I don't have the memories to miss her or worse because I don't have the memories to miss her.

Either way it is different for everyone so please ignore those ignorant, insensitive people.

AitchTwoOhOneOh · 03/03/2010 11:09

to be fair i can understand that the woman in your group was thinking you'd had it easier, in not having got so far on in your pregnancy. i mean, it doesn't bear any scrutiny, it's not hard to see that grief is grief and pain is pain, but i think it takes you a while to get there in your head.

for example, logically i would think that miscarriage has to be easier than ectopic, because your fertility is not threatened, the stats are good, you don't get a burst of chemo to kill off the pregnancy, op to remove fallopian tube etc, and i certainly felt at the time of my wee pregnancies that i'd have rather it been miscarriage. perhaps she'd rather have not got so far on in her pregnancy? isn't that fair enough for her head to be there right now, and the other women?

does it make your pain any less that she thinks she had more pain? it really doesn't. and in time she will come to realise that, with your help, ironically enough. it really is a quantum, the two things, your most terrible pain and hers, the fact that yes, it probably is harder to lose a child the longer the pregnancy goes on, both really can exist at the same time and neither devalue the other. it will be you who helps her see that, if you continue your good work.

porcamiseria · 03/03/2010 12:47

awww onemissing, thats tough

I can see how that would upset you, and in a scenario where you have to be supportive and can't even answer back

only you can determine is supporting this group works for you or not, do what feels right

But I am very shocked that they actually said that , insensitive and in my opnion, not true

22 weeks, 38 weeks, you still think eveything is gonna be OK

again sorry for you x

Dirtgirl · 03/03/2010 12:58

You are not being unreasonable. How awful for you, I am so sorry for your loss.

AitchTwoOhOneOh · 03/03/2010 15:12

but really, can none of you see why this woman and the others at the group might legitimately think this, especially at this point in their grieving.

i wholeheartedly applaud the work that onemissing is doing, but it IS okay for them to feel that her loss was somehow lesser, it doesn't make them bad or insensitive, it just makes them human.

you must all think that my losses were lesser, because they happened at around six weeks or so? you absolutely in your hearts must.

confuddledDOTcom · 03/03/2010 16:23

I don't think it's about one woman's pain v another, that would be impossible. It's about would I have felt worse if I had lost my baby a few weeks later? My pain v my pain.

I've miscarried and it was devastating. I think the difference for me is that I felt safe when I passed a certain point so wasn't expecting it. I also never saw my miscarried babies, but I saw and held a "real" baby later on. I wouldn't compare how I felt later on to how someone else felt with a miscarriage.

Kewcumber · 03/03/2010 18:56

Aitch - I can see how for some people loss at 6 weeks could be less than for a later miscarriage, I can also see that when you are in the midst of grieving, frankly almost any comment is forgiveable.

I also know how much I grieved for the loss of my conceived child each time my IVF failed (presumably that doesn't count at all, given the child was conceived!). I think what you are grieving is different and varied for each person and there's really little point in trying to be rational about it.

I can imagine though in the depths of my grief that no-ones grief could possibly be as bad as mine.

onemissing · 03/03/2010 19:39

Aitch

I of course understand where this woman's comment was coming from. A place of grief, anger and confusion. It is absolutely ok for her to feel that way in her head, and also reasonable that she may not in her current state have the wherewithal to realize that it may not be an appropriate thought to share with the group.

All that's a given. Doesn't mean it doesn't hurt to hear though.

Also, it it not,a "fact that yes, it probably is harder to lose a child the longer the pregnancy goes on". That is your perception.

There are no facts when it comes to grieving.

An early miscarriage after many years of trying to conceive, having to make the horrific decision to have a late termination due to abnormality, a woman losing her first baby at 23 weeks and being unable to have any more children.

Where do these examples fit in your heirachy of grief?

I think it's very unhelpful to compare losses in that way.

Continuing my good work will be about supporting women like this through their darkest times, whatever the gestation at which their child was born, and gently explaining, in future, that losing a baby is devastating and heartbreaking whenever it happens.

OP posts:
AitchTwoOhOneOh · 03/03/2010 20:39

i don't think you have the right to explain, gently or otherwise, that losing a baby is devastating and heartbreaking whenever it happens. that's your perception, to coin a phrase, and that woman may quite legitimately go to her grave believing that you have been through something less traumatic than she.

and remember, for some people it's not devastating (viz bonsoir and other people i know) and expecting them to be heartbroken etc may well be insensitive to their needs. plenty of people do come to a reckoning that what happened was 'for the best', no matter how insensitive that remark has been portrayed here.

in a way, i think you might subconsciously be as guilty as the people in the group of 'competifying' grief, if you can't see that those women might quite legitimately think that what you were luckier than they were. i simply do not believe that at some level women who lost their babies later don't feel less fortunate than those of us who lost them earlier, and that, imo, is quite fair enough. i think it's human nature to compare.

although i would stress that the woman didn't say that it was 'easier' by your own telling, she said 'easier to understand'. presumably she meant in terms of medical conditions, development etc and because you wouldn't have yet assumed you were out of the woods.

it must be an absolute torture (speaking as the mum of a prem) for women who lost children really late on to think that had they only been 'out' they might have been safe. i can be 100% certain that my child would have died in utero within a few days, had i not been scanned and operated on that afternoon, and i thank god that i was, but you will never in a million years persuade me that had i lost her then it would have been the same as when i lost my other pregnancies (and remember, i was so miserable then that i feared or my sanity). believe me, i would have experienced paroxysms of grief that would have topped anything i'd ever have experienced before.

as i have said before, even if one's sense of grief might be the same, that does not mean that the traumatic event that precipitated it might not be harder on a number of levels. it's a quantum, the two things can exist simultaneously imo. i do think that you need to consider that, tbh, if your group is to be successful and helpful to others.

i like kewk's point that any comment in the midst of that grief is forgiveable, but i do think that even if those women come out of the other side of that grief and still feel the same, it's not up to you to tell them different, however gently, because then you're just falling into the same trap as they are.

i just don't like the way that they have been portrayed as being insensitive or foolish for having said that your loss was 'easier to understand', especially given that they are sunk deep in the midst of their own loss. it seems a really unfair characterisation to me, and i think those were the answers you were after, tbh, when you posted in aibu. i just wonder whether you're ready to look after the group or will be able to help them in future if you come on here encouraging people to dismiss their feelings on your behalf. are you sure you really are ready to take on other people's pain? (i must stress that i mean this in a nice way, however tough it sounds. it's actually a very confrontational question that you've asked, if you think about it.)

WorzselMummage · 03/03/2010 20:43

I think you speak much sense Aitch

AitchTwoOhOneOh · 03/03/2010 20:54

thanks, worz, i was tying myself in knots a bit there. pain is pain, for sure, and i wouldn't wish any loss of any child, however old, on anyone.

WorzselMummage · 03/03/2010 20:59

It's so very personal isn't it, grief. It's impossibly to quantify and grieving people have a right to say things without thinking them though.

You put it very well I think.

midori1999 · 03/03/2010 21:56

I have to admit that until very recently, having had three problem free and easy pregnancies, I thought that, other than very late ones/stillborths, miscarriage was just something that happened, was awful and then you got over it.

Now, I am sat here at 15 weeks and 3 days pregnant, having had the membranes around one twin rupture at 14 weeks and 5 days, so five days ago. The prognosis is not good, although I remain hopeful and I now face the very real risk of losing both of my babies at any time over the next 9 weeks or so. I am counting on that 'magical' 24 weeks but I know that even if my babies survive untl birth, the twin with the ruptured membrane is unlikey to have good enough lung development to survive and the outlook for the second twin won't be great at 24 weeks.

I haven't even lost my babies yet, but I have an inkling of how it must feel, and it is terrifying.

I do think though that people are sometimes genuinely trying to be helpful when they say useless things. There's no 'right' thing to say is such circumstances.

onemissing · 03/03/2010 22:11

Midori, I'm so sorry to hear about your twin's membranes rupturing. I have had ruptured membranes in 2 pregnancies, so know all too well how very frightening it can be. Have you seen this website?:

www.kanalen.org/prom/

It has lots of good advice on what to do after your waters break early.

I so hope that your babies will hang on in there.

Take good care.

OP posts:
jellybeans · 03/03/2010 22:17

I think that it is the lost future which we are grieving and what should have been. I don't think that would vary that much whether you were 19 weeks or 30 odd weeks. Either way you would have given birth to and held a fully formed baby. A baby at 23/24 weeks can survive and is considered an offical person. I can see that the shock and injustice of being so near the end would maybe be more intense though.

WorzselMummage · 03/03/2010 22:21

I'm a pprom mummy too, 22 weeks with DS & 30 with DD. DS was given a grim prognosis as I never accumalated any water after the initial rupture and they told me he wouldn't have developed the ability to breath. Pulmonary hypoplasia they called it. We were told there was very little hope for him and he's 14 months now and I can hear him snoring down the moniter.

I should imagine it's a grimmer situation whe they go so much earlier but there is still some hope. The Kanalan link is great. it really helped me though some dark times. I have a long running post on here too.

I don't have CAT. My Email is [email protected] though, if you wanted to email me.

onemissing · 03/03/2010 22:27

I never suggested that I couldn't see why this women might think that I was luckier than her, or that I thought she was insensitive, or foolish. In fact I made it clear that I could understand where such feelings could have come from.

What I asked in my original post was not remotely confrontational, just me trying to get my head around my feelings about what had been said, and genuinely wanting to gauge the general perception.

I think part of the problem with the group I am involved with is that there is no structure of support in place, so I have no-one to offload to, or discuss situations I find problematic, hence me posting on here.

I have absolutely no doubt in my own mind that many of the parents I encounter have been through way more traumatic experiences of loss than me. It's something I consider daily, and I have never suggested otherwise.

The women who seek out our help do so because they are devastated by what has happened to them. Obviously I have no intention of trying to persuade people who are not feeling that way that they should be.

Feels like this has all turned a bit ugly now, which was not my intention.

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