to think that a 3 year old doesn't really need a DS. ..

[choufleur]

and if you're going to buy your 3 year old one then you shouldn't allow them to take it to nursery so that other 3 years olds (my ds) then go on and on about wanting one.

But punk rock etc. were not created purely as a DIVERSION whereas, frankly, most computer interaction is created pretty much purely for diversionary purposes.

Was talking recently to a friend with a teenager who said that they and all their friends spend literally all their time on computers, with ten or so MSN conversations going on constantly - we were comparing this to our own teenage years and the (generally very square) hobbies and groups that we used to belong to. She was saying that there is very little for teenagers to do now, it seems, in comparison to her own teenage life, but her teenagers spend all their time comparing depressive thoughts and self-harm techniques online, for hours on end.

Perhaps her experience is completely unusual, but I would hazard a guess that (particularly in rural/deprived areas) this is pretty much the norm.

compuer games were only ever used by a small minority: Facebook etc. are used almost universally

That's simply not true. Have you actually sat and played a game like Bioshock? Have you watched a child build an imaginary area in Little Big Planet?

Link here to an article discussing computer games as an enhancement to literacy, critical thinking, imagination etc.

I entirely agree on the thoughts within that games can have amazing narrative structure and character development. They can also teach children about all sorts of themes from war to politics. Online collaboration can teach strategy, problem-solving and teamwork.

Personally, I find movies a bit dull. I want to interact with a story, to explore its angles and to poke around with the bits I'm interested in. With a good game, I can do that.

What a sad story for your friend. Does your friend know that's all they talk about? I can just see the conversation, "Oh, Mum... Kelly says I'd have much better success with my self-harming if I use a finer pointed knife. What do you think?"

You find movies dull because they are not interactive? Do you find books dull? Art galleries? Culture?

I haven't played computer games for a long time - I used to do so when I was a teenager, but found myself feeling dull, lethargic, headache-y and regretting the hours I wasted on them.

No, I find movies dull because they are the same old crap churned out in the same order with the same characters every time. Avatar got massive accolades so I went to see it but found it utterly predictable and rather bland (pretty though it was). There are a few movies I like but they tend to be ones that give you a bit more creative leeway with the interpretation rather than ramming cliches and jaded one-size-fits-all plot lines down your throat.

I love culture! My degree is in performance art and I frequently found strong overlaps between the world of gaming and the world of performance (and indeed, there's some fascinating theory out there on digital performance)

I'd compare an art gallery to a good game actually. In both, you can explore what you want, interact with the experience, spend time on the areas that interest you, ask questions, frame the pictures in a way that is relevant to you.

There's been some really interesting educational and artistic programmes on platforms such as Second Life.

I don't regret any hours I wasted on games. In fact,I remember many of them very fondly, like favourite books.

I sort of agree with morningpaper...I think too much sitting on your own with a screen is harmful to emotional development.

I work in IT so see a lot of the results!!!!

I limit DD's screen time, so she has a chance to do other things and experience lots of situations/emotions etc through sport and dance and learning how to get on with people and live somewhere approaching the real world..

Too much sitting on your own with anything isn't ideal for emotional development.

Everything in moderation.

CarmenSanDiego I find your posts depressing

Sorry but I would FAR rather look back on my life and know I'd spent time reading and learning and helping other people

I doubt anyone ever lies on their deathbed and thinks "Gosh I wish I'd made it to Level 17"

Hmm. But why? I could say exactly the same thing about books. Or movies. Or playing Scrabble.

I'd like to spend more time helping people and learning too. But I'm completing my MBA this year, HEing my children and training as an antenatal teacher in the evening. I visit museums etc. every week with my kids. In my spare time, I help people with birth issues and am currently volunteering with a festival to help people with postnatal depression. I can also program in several languages and have written several plays.

Sorry if that's not enough and I can't play games in my (little) relaxation time. What's depressing? Plenty of my friends if we're resorting to the anecdotal are gamers, but well-rounded with jobs, qualifications and other interests.

Why wish you'd spent more time reading?

Why is reading superior to games? What, even all the cookie cutter chick lit bollocks? Whether we're talking games, movies or books, there are a few classics but there's plenty of drivel. I don't believe any one media is superior to another. (Although I might make an argument for games because they are more complex and engage more of the brain than either of the previous two. You have to solve problems, use manual skills and still use the literary and creative interpretation. They use text as well as images and sound.)

I'm not talking about space invaders. Level 17 sounds like something from the 80s.

I'm talking about games which are developed with complex plot lines, character development, beautiful images, original scores. Fallout and Bioshock introduced me to a whole genre of forties music, for example. You CAN learn plenty from games. Just take a look at the credits of a big game sometime. Hundreds upon hundreds of people involved in the acting, development and writing of it.

MP well said I agree entirely and and bring my kids up accordingly

I seriously believe we are all kidding oursleves as well as severely 'rounding -down' the hours our kids spend on screens..

The studies are there - the effect on sleep - attention span - behaviour in class..

NT kids

Sorry Carmen but I completely disagree with you

If you basically think that reading literature is inferior to playing computer games then I think it's too late for you

There was a little boy on 'Child Of Our Time' (is that what it was called?) a few years ago, who had been allowed computer games from a very, very early age. He really struggled when he started school iirc and didn't know how to make friends etc.

Having said that, I do think that things like MSN can be okay, as they develop multi-tasking, rapid reading and response (although not spelling!). For teenagers though, NOT 3 year olds obviously.

I'm sorry but I am still quite frightened at the idea of three year olds owning DSs.

But you haven't actually PLAYED a game in the recent past, so how can you have an opinion that they are so bad?

I dunno. Gaming has improved my life. I have a whole network of friends around the world who I met through gaming and who I've visited and vice versa. They include teachers, financiers, artists etc. etc.

I met my American husband of 10 years on a game.

I visited Munich because I was so intrigued by it in a Gabriel Knight game.

Good games help you see things in a new perspective. STALKER could change your perspective on Chernobyl. Adventure out of time changed my thoughts on the Titanic.

I wouldn't say that SUper Mario Bros 1 is better than 1984, but I do think the books v. games argument is silly. It's like saying books v. movies. They're all different media and serve different purposes. You can enjoy all of them.

But you seem to think games are unenjoyable. Shame.

Going to crawl out of my gaming 'pit' now and brave the sunlight for lunch at the beach.

Oh, what a depressing life.

But you seem to think games are unenjoyable. Shame.

Not at all, I just think that they are a waste of time and very possibly bad for your mental health

Gaming is fun I am sure but our childrens generation do it the the exclusion of a LOT of other stuff

waste of life time

This was recently in the telegraph

the multi tasking TOTAL is particularly scary

As with all things, I think there is a difference between the use of something and the overuse / abuse of it. In moderation, games consoles tend not to cause problems, but almost all problems people tend to cite are related to their abuse or overuse, rather than a problem with the tool per se.

My DDs have DS lites. For whatever reasons, they can go for weeks between using them, and as it is generally not something they use in the house, then it is never used extensively for any period of time (although I do not ban its use within the house, I just keep it out of sight, so they tend not to think of playing with them).

The limited use of a DS does not stop my daughter from doing what other 6 year olds enjoy doing - her favourite games are dressing up and barbies, she does 4 1/2 hours of Gymnastics a week. She loves reading (Enid Blyton and Road Dahl are her favourite authors), making up dances and doing Gymnastics. In no way could you say that her life is limited, because she likes to play sudoku on her DS once or twice a week. The same goes for my 3 year old - she lives a full and active life, and usually plays her DS whilst waiting for her big sister to have her gymnastic or ballet lesson. But as I say, it is not the use of these machines that people seem to object to, but the overuse or abuse of them and I think people need to distinguish this if the debate is going to move forward.

Actually, I agree that the sort of solitaire/bejewelled/Farmville games are pretty mindnumbing because they're so repetitive. Rather like doing sudokus. Once you know how to do them, I don't think your skill level grows that far. I'm talking about more complex games and games with a social aspect.

World of Warcraft is an example. Playing it a little bit can broaden the imagination, teach you resource management, problem solving and aid arithmetic. Playing it to excess becomes repetitive and yes, pretty mindnumbing.

I just think video games on the whole get a bad rep because people don't understand just what the genre is capable of and their experience is limited to Bejewelled or Mafia Wars.

I myself am a gamer, and a 13 year old one at that. obviously, you'd expect me to be biased towards games but ...

3 year olds do not needs games full stop. maybe a bit of tv, but they do not need it.

get them a ds when their around 5 or 6

I myself have a playstation 3 complete with all mannor of games of which I know you'd love to crow about (hence several 18's, bioshock 2, fallout 3, etc) and at my age, its ok to have these types of amazing games. all you have to do is peel away the mask of innapropriority and controversy to find a truly amazing game.

you may argue that kids become obsessed with games and they inspire kids to do dangerous things.

give you and example. johnny, falls out of a window while trying to secretly buy halo 3 for xbox. the parents, too dumb to see its their son's fault, obliviously think it's the games fault, dont punish him, complain to the games's developors.

the games shouldn't be banned, kids who will are dumb enough to do things like that should be banned from playing them. all it takes is one thicko breaking his leg and ruining a amazing game for thousands of other children.

I have been playing 15's and 18's for years and i'm not dead/murderer/arsonist/rapist etc

YANBU far too young and definately not good to take it too nursery.

i had a ds but when DS(the child now) got his hands on it just before 2yrs it went to 'ds heaven'

sure he'll occasionaly have a literal bash on DHs xbox buttons and we used to be big gamers before kids take precendence, but he'll not get his own for some years yet.

i see 3/4/5 yr olds surgically atatched to them and i'm afraid i want to rip it from their grip and give them a football

huh... never mind ignore the truth