AIBU to think that burlesque is a bit crap?

[TiggyR]

My friend phoned out of the blue last week and asked if DH and I would like to join them to see a burlesque show in the London. I said yes, because
a) I like going out and don't get to go out often enough,
b) there was talk of dinner after,
c)I didn''t have the heart/guts to say 'Good God woman, what on eath do you want to sit through that cheesy tripe for?'
d) I was caught unawares and panicked.

Now I am not a prude, at least not where a consenting couple and a a bedroom are concerned. I have been known to be a bit inventive/naughty on occasion, and I have had a passing aquaintance with bumsex, bondage etc, so NOT a nun or a repressed saddo, and do I realise that burlesque is not full-on pornography, but I just find the thought of all that cheesy old fashioned titillation caberet-stylee excruciatingly embarrassing and cringey. I don't find it sexy, I find it a bit seedy and sad. I won't know where to look. I can't bear to think I'll be in a room with two hundred bald fat middle aged men who are all pretending to enjoy the 'art' and the music, and the spectacle, when actually their eyes are glazed over and they've got a hard-on under their popcorn. ICK!
I can't bear the chippendales, stripograms, hen-nights or lap-dancing or anything that's designed to get people horny whilst in a room full of strangers. Its all so undignified and cringey and desperate!

I googles the 'artiste' I'm going to have to sit through, and watched a video of her stripping (artistically) whilst singing some crap caberet style song, and I felt a sickeing feeling of impending doom. I'll be fidgeting in my seat all night, for all the wrong reasons and looking through gaps in my fingers.

Am I wrong?

I really like a bit of burlesque but it doesn't really do it for me sexually (apart from Immodesty Blaize who is Divine) - I like porn my DH doesn't really but he likes burlesque too (strippers don't do it for him, interestingly.i think maybe too in his face??). From the DH's point of view I, he prefers the body type and style of dress rather than porn heels and dayglo g-strings. We go to Torture Garden as well as other similar places rather a lot, so take issue with it being a once in a lifetime experience and cannot understand what all the fuss is about.

Burlesque performers are not just strippers (and i really like some strippers, much more than the DH), it really is entertaining and a good night out with a few drinks and cheesy acts, I agree there are more intellectually fulfilling experiences but it is just a bit of fun, no need for people here go get serious about it being degrading etc. If it's not your thing then fine...and I do also really take exception to the comments about fat women and stuff. I know it is meant to be funny but that sort of thing can cause real offence.

I like Dita Von Teese. I think she has a great look.

Dita is def not doing 'stripping for fat girls' in real life she is like a Polly Pocket - tiny tiny tiny

Hi Kaloki! I stumbled on this place when I was looking for another similar thread - good to 'see' you on here too!

Bruxeur - I wasn't trying to be rude by calling sport a kid's game - merely suggesting that I can't believe people get paid to do something that kids do for play (although you could say the same about acting or singing, art or whatever people do for pleasure). Either way, wasn't trying to disparage sport of sports fans - just pointing out that it is something I don't understand that doesn't appeal to me. Apologies for the confusion, that was my mistake for lack of clairty.

Tethersend - Good question. And I think the answer you get will vary from perfomer to performer. I don't call myself a stripper (although there is stripping some of my acts), I don't call myself a dancer (although there is dance in the majority of my acts), I don't call myself a costumier (although I make and customise a lot of my own costumes). I use the term 'burlesque performer' or 'burlesquer' although I know a lot of people go by 'burlesque dancer' which I have never used (gives people false hope about my dancing skills!).
To come back to the football analogy, a footballer doesn't call him/herself a runner. Although what he/she does involves running that is just one component part of the picture. 'Footballer' is a more accurate description of what the player does, just as 'Burlesquer' is more accurate for what I do than 'Stripper'.
On the other hand others can refer to what I do in any way they like, if they want to call me a stripper they can. My only objection would be if someone called me a stripper to try and be derisive. That, to me seems to ignore the difference between the two styles of performance and insults strip club strippers as much as it is intended to insult burlesquers. Not that the two are completely different but that's like me saying 'football - rugby same thing.' just because neither of them appeals to me.

What I am interested to know is why people feel burlesque is such a hot-button issue that gets people so angry. Not why people don't like it per se but more why it makes the blood boil. I know lots of posts like this are coming up on forums all around and while a lot of people calmly state that burlesque is 'not their bag' it also seems to send quite a few people into a venom spitting rage, the like you tend not to see when someone doesn't like say, knitting or haikus or whatever. Why do people think this is? Is it to do with self esteem, body image and being confronted with people who seem to be at home in bodies that the viewer might be considered flawed - alerting the viewer to their own concerns in this area? Is it that people feel the media is ramming it down people's throats (this is a big beef in burlesque circles because - like most things - the media don't always portray the artform accurately)? Is it that people feel that sexuality (even in the mild form usually shown on a burlesque stage) is private and should be kept that way? Is the faddy way that so many people have jumped on the bandwagon annoying (another pet peeve for a lot of burlesquers!)? Or is there some other reason I am missing? One I had never considered before that came up on another forum was someone saying that it offended them that burlesquers were often aware of the intellectual side of their performance. They felt that if burlesquers pretended that the creative, artistic, intellectual side that is present in many (not all, I might add!) burlesque acts did not exist it would sit better with them. They felt we were getting 'ideas above our station' and should essentially, not aspire to make our performances entertaining on any level other than w**k fodder. So what do you think?
What I am curious about is not why those of you who dislike it dislike it - people's tastes will always differ - it would be weird if they didn't(!) but more what it is that makes some people so hopping mad about it that they have to let rip?!

It's not really my kind of thing.

But... if your night out is in Volupte OP, I know the owner, so you can say hello to her from me, not that she'll know who 'Jenbot' is, but er, never mind!

"I'm not sure how someone crowd-surfing with her minge out is wholesome. "

It's absolutely fine provided she has a retro minge. Think of those glamourous Lady Gardens from the 40s and 50s. Those women knew how to get their minges out for the bourgeoisie.

Okay, I'll bite, Emerald.
You have pinpointed several reasons why I don not appreciate burlesque. Yes, it is overexposed, and the bandwagon is rolling on.
However, the main one is that the burlesque aesthetic, then, has got into other areas of the theatre arts, where it is not needed. As someone who used to be an (amateur) fire dancer many moons ago, it saddens me to see that more and more female performers are sacrificing or subjugating the technical side of their performances in favour of adding in raunch and glamour, in order to tap into the burlesque aesthetic.
I try not to be prudish, but I do have a problem with "sex", or female sexuality, being so omnipresent and shoved in our faces. It's cliched and boring now. Burlesque advocates have tried to convince me that this is an empowered alternative sexuality, but sorry, all I see is titillating underwear and jiggling body parts, which is really no different to a hip-hop video.
I'm going to have to cut this short, as have to get somewhere, but I'd also like to add that corsets give me the creeps, so burlesque is unlikely to be for me!

tiggyr and getorfmoiland totally TOTALLY agree with both of you, and the chubby middle class goth description, brilliant!

It's cringeworthy overhyped bourgeoisie nonsense. Hate hate the "trendiness" aspect of it too, just like having pole dancing lessons was a few years ago. Load.of.crap.

fwiw if any hen do's i'm invited to contain any of this s**te ie burlesque or pole dancing I don't go to that bit and say i'll join them for the meal afterwards or club or whatever. am known as a miserable cow for doing it but i don't care!

if we have a babysitter would not waste a precious evening going to see this rubbishy, overhyped nonsense.

ditto drag acts and bavarian theme nights.

2 absolute worst venues in Manchester "the birdcage" (drag) and "the beirkeller", enforced jollity lederhosen standing on wooden bencehs singing german songs and the like. Unfortnately both popular for hen do's and works do's.

TheSmallClanger That totally makes sense. I can really empathise with how frustrating it is to see every cabaret, vaudeville, fire, poi, stilt walker or other type of performer feel they need to make their at 'a bit burlesque-y' just so it ticks the box of the latest media trend.
It works both ways too - we burlesquers find it frustrating that every strip club runs a 'burlesque night' which is just their usual girls, doing their usual perfomances but it corsets to a 40s/50s song and that so many pop groups or whatever now do a 'burlesque' themed single or tour which is just, again, them doing their usual act but in a corset.
Most burlesque-bods I know don't want to push their love of the art form onto others or take over and swamp other performance styles. A lot of that seems to be encouraged by promoters and event organisers who don't really know enough about the style of performance they are booking and perpetuated by people who want to jump on the bandwagon in the hope of making some extra cash. If I go to see a fire performer or a belly dancer or a pop singer I want them to be that. I love burlesque but I don't need other types of performers to include a nod to burlesque for me to enjoy it.
A great answer and real food for thought!

Emerald

LOL at 'crowd-surfing with your minge out'

Oh God. Burlesque is just so boring now. It was edgy about 10 years ago, but now it's become mainstream in quite a sad way. Yes, it is just stripping. Most of the people I know who are into it are middle class girls who want to make themselves 'interesting', as someone else said. Needless to say, they do not succeed. The fact that it often involves women who are of a more substantial build to most strippers is neither here nor there. I don't have to like it just because it 'celebrates' larger women. I find it totally excruciating.

So we've gone from middle class to bourgeoisie now?

Am working class stock and proud of it - and still love Burlesque. So that must make it ok now then, 'cos evidently to describe something as middle class is to deride it, right? Am quite new to mumsnet - so still learning the unwritten rules.

Those of you who hate it really really do hate it don't you?

Horses for courses, have been called worse than 'chubby goth' in my time. Really looking forward to a Burlesque night with Immodesty Blaise at the Electric Cinema in Brum in Feb.

Anyone fancy it? ;)

I have to say. It's a little disappointing that a small minority of the posters on here appear to practice such flagrant reverse snobbery. Again, I have to repeat, this is primarily a parenting forum - as parents do you really want your children to grow up in a world where they are told their contribution to art, performance, creativity or life in general is less valid because of their class background? It's a pity that people don't realise that beautiful things can be produced by people regardless of class. Oscar Wilde's work stands up perfectly well next to John Lennon's. Class background may inform your creative voice and give you a certain style and viewpoint but to write something off as less vaild because of the socio-economic group or family background of the originator means that you can end up cutting yourself off from lots of beautiful things in life. Not just talking about burlesque here btw, if that's not your cup of tea that's fine. Just feel really saddened to see people who are out there raising children and possibly passing this myopic view of class on to the next generation.

Ooh! Princess Boo, just saw your post. I had no idea Immodesty Blaize was coming to Brum. Might have to look that up!

PS. Glad to hear that working class and middle class people don't always have to be at loggerheads, it's a notion I have never understood myself.

Yeah, something about it rubs me the wrong way... maybe it seems a bit pretentious, all the "ironic" stagenames a la Kitty von Cutiepie or whatever (they all seem to be Kitty Something!), the mugging expressions ... I have a few acquaintances who go in for all that, albeit in an amateur way, and it always looks tiresomely hung up on how post-modern and clever it all is (and yet still cheap-looking... maybe that's part of the clever irony!). I really can't stand Dita Von Teese... fake boobs, dyed hair, face plastered in make-up and yet she's held up as some kind of old-fashioned, classy beauty? (Nothing against changing one's looks per se, but not when you're being heralded as a refreshingly natural beauty). Anyway, whoever the intended audience is for burlesque, I'm clearly not it. I'm not interested in watching stripping in any of its forms, and personally prefer to "keep some things sacred" as it were

Emerald - have just looked on the electric cinema website to get more info for you and it's sold out. Am gutted

Burlesque is rife here in Sydney - but its not the cheap, tacky, get-yer-tits-out experience that many of you seem to have had. The nights are devoted to magicians, comedians,musicians and dancers.
One of my best mates over here is a performer and she's not only incredibly stunning but exceptionally talented. There is nothing degrading about her show at all - unless you call that being surrounded by lots of very beautiful people dressed in vintage 1950's clothing . Much rather go to a club like that than some crappy house night where everyone's off their tits on class A's and the women are wearing next to nothing..

Saying that, if I had to sit for a whole night infront of enormous hooters twirling tassles in my face, I'd be pretty keen to hit the bar.

Just one question for all those who are vehemently against it, though - what's your opinion on women posing nude for life drawing? Lets face it - most artists prefer drawing women. I can count on one hand the number of times I've drawn a man after 4 years at art college and over a decade of life drawing classes. I know the models love posing and a lot of them are also burlesque performers.

I don't have time to read this now so marking my place to come back after work.
Unfortunatly in a call centre not as a stripping chubby goth.

Brightongirldownunder are you referring to Dr Sketchy's?
I have done Sketchy's in Nottingham, Manchester and Birmingham and it's a great meeting of minds for the art crowd and the burlesque/cabaret community. If some of you find the idea of going to a burlesque night a little full on but you're still curious about what real burlesque entails Dr Sketchy's is a great middle-ground event where you get entertainment and drinks like a cabaret event but you also get to draw the performers and have a drink and a laugh in an informal setting.
Brilliant!

EmeraldAce - if you like Dr Sketchy's, have to been to any of the Danse Macabre stuff that's on every now and again in Nottingham and London?

They're running "Pit of Curiosities II" on the 12th of this month at the Pit and Pendulum in Notts...

Princess Boo.. if your going to miss The Electric Cinema you could try Heresy ans Heelz in Feb

heresy and heelz

OK, I'm now convinced that the audience will be more Birdcage/NCT AGM than Spearmint Rhino. Not sure that makes it necesarily any better or worse for me though...

I appreciate Emerald's very rational and intelligent comments though, and I agree I don't think it's necessary to get too venomous about the whole thing. I suppose it's just a bit of a mystery to me why it has become so popular and cheesily mainsteam. Certainly the friends who have invited us are hardly at the cutting edge of anything, and if it was ever deeply arty, left field, post-modernist bohemian, clever clogness it sure as hell isn't now we are going!

I think I feel a bit queasy about the bandwagon jumping as much as anything else. But I think someone else hit it on the head for me when they talked about not knowing how to arrange their face when they are supposed to be enjoying something but actually finding it a bit tedious/baffling.

Anyway, I'll report back. who knows - I may be converted.

OK, so I've been, and I'm back.

and...whispers.....embarrassed.....

It was great. Sorry.

Very small intimate West End theatre, absolutely packed to the gills with a hugely diverse and largely non-pervy audience, from cool and trendy/arty urban peacocks and dandies, to 50-something couples who looked like they lived in Weybridge, shopped in John Lewis and captained the golf club, to hen parties to students, to very 'normal' people of all ages, to one couple in, erm, branded sportswear, who looked like they'd got lost on the way to the Jeremy Kyle studio.

I was in the second row, right in the middle and I had an extemely good, clear view. A bit too good, TBH.

Costumes and sets were stunning
Music/choreography/dancing great - extremely professional standard
The girls were all very beautiful I must say - though none were remotely chubby or gothy, and some could barely even carry the phrase 'curvy'. They all just looked like very attractive, very slim professional dancers with very pale skin and very red lipstick to me.
There was a great deal of tongue in cheek humour in some of the routines, and if I had to pick just one word, it was FUN.

Not demeaning or exploitative really, though not particularly empowering either, I'd have thought. There were one or two moments where I wanted to hide my face in my coat, and a rather cringey (and thankfully brief) session of audience participation where we were all encouraged to stand up and grind our hips (I declined, obviously) and luckily for him so did my DH, but apart from that it was all great entertaining fun, and not (especially) cheesy or seedy.

I didn't find it remotely titillating or erotic though, and my DH and all our party said the same. That was a relief for me personally...

However - I've seen enough quivering buttocks at(alarmingly) close range, and heard enough high pitched whoops that sounded like orgasming on helium to last me a while so I shan't rush back. And I found it a bit tiresome and that a percentage of the audience were so keen to get into the 'humour' aspect that (whilst most of us found ourselves smiling wryly a few times) they seemed determined to laugh like simpletons drains at every little joke or double entendre (and there were lots of those) which was a bit tedious. It really wasn't that funny.

Anyway, just popped in to say that it was not nearly as crap as I'd feared and I really rather enjoyed it in spite of myself.