to think that schools admissions aren't fair

[picklepud]

This is different from saying that I wouldn't go through the system if my child's local school had religious criteria, but I am feeling a bit sad and up in arms for a friend today. Same old story, her local school (primary) is c of E VA. She's not, and chose not to get baptised or go to church twice monthly. So now she will have to drive to her allocated school. So incidentally will many of the people who got in on religious grounds from way away. I really really would go to church for my dd to get into my local school, so I'm not criticising those who do, but I just don't think it should be necessary. Or that religious commitment should give you priority in a state school. And particularly that the vicar should not pretend for a minute that he (as he said in a newspapaper article) say that this is a school in the heart of the community serving all the children of the community.
I know, I know, some people might genuinely change through exposure to the church but I don't think it's the way for a church to expand its membership. sorry. and sorry it's so long.

Having slept on it I think that the system for VC schools seems the best compromise, ie LA criteria for admissions then elements of faith education when in. You're right Tottwriter, faith schools can't disappear completely in this climate, and I actually am not sure on my view on faith schools per se, I'm grateful to the church of england for moving education forward historically when some children received little or no education. But I still however hard I try can't reconcile myself with a system that excludes people from a largely state funded institution, which owes much of its success to government funding (a partnership if you like). And I don't think my bright idea of commitment to a school stands up completely either because fundamentally I believe also in education being a social leveller and that wouldn't help. Unless there was some criteria for lower income families having priority? Would that help or hinder? It's a separate issue from the access to faith schools though. I think the church needs to look at its social obligations and so does the state, which might lead the church to remove religious criteria and the state to do something about secular social selection (catchment? but I still believe in children going to school in their community). I am really encouraged though, to see that many VA schools do not have faith as top of their criteria list and that there are vicars who don't think its right. I think the reason I'm not convinced by the "more commitment, attend more activities" arguments that were posed last night, which really made me think btw, is that I still can't be reconciled with faith education for the faithful, because the largest part of that education is actually academic and the lack of demand for less academic faith schools show that the isn't top of the list for parents choosing a school. Which is absolutely fair enough but which also suggests it shouln't be what gets them in either.
I'm going to try to get away from the discussion now. Probably won't work but will try! I am really grateful, this has really made me think.

However, this thread is not primarily about the existence of faith schools - it was started questioning the fairness and honesty of their admissions policies. So whether faith organisations are net contributors or recipients of funding isn't the issue.

The issue is whether the churches want their schools to be insular and self-serving or providing genuine service to children who may most need it.

I think from what we've discussed so far, some do attempt the latter, the leaders (of the CofE anyway) want them to, but unfortunately too many are still in the former camp.

Now, people like me can bang on the doors from outside, but change really works best from within. Personally I'd rather do away with faith schools entirely, but as that revolution seems unlikely in the foreseeable future for the practical reasons given, I'll take the pragmatic line of encouraging evolution towards a fairer and more honest system.

Go on. Challenge your vicars and priests. Join the Accord Coalition. Put your house in order yourselves.

(sorry, seem to have got on soapbox then )

"a largely state funded institution, which owes much of its success to government funding"

Actually Pickle I disagree. They'll owe their success to selecting the most motivated parents, without a doubt. Take away the parents and the success will dribble off.

Am sure admissions probably aren't fair, but they must all differ. Think it's rotten that people like MollyRoger don't have a decent school nearby; in effect giving her no choice at all.

xpost with pickle.

I really do like the notion of 'criteria for lower income families having priority' - (all schools, not just faith, not even just state schools, I once before proposed private schools should have to give some fully bursaried places to disadvantaged children.)

• might be hard to work out in practice but I can't help an evil smirk at the knot that would tie Alpha Mummies in

They used to, they were called assisted places.

They used to, they were called assisted places.

"a largely state funded institution, which owes much of its success to government funding"

The CofE schools would barely exist at all without state funding - they are broke, can't afford vicars in many parishes.

Yes, but so do all schools. What's the difference (that people get upset about?) The success. The parents are responsible for that differentiating factor.

Up, for some its the success but for many its simply the access

What do you mean, the access. That doesn't make sense.

Anyway I'm getting a bit addicted here. I think I should email a few people. I will be back later. Think I need to go cold turkey though

Betsyboop, thanks for the clarification.

Grenadine, I promise to be nice about voluntary controlled schools from now on.

Am intrigued by the following remark:

"I'm sure there a hundreds of 'invisible' church schools that do not have people clamouring/lying to gain admittance because they serve a largely challenging and socially/economically disadvantaged catchment area, which is not very appealing to middle class parents."

This is what a church school should be doing. Where are these schools?

AIBU to think that I am a bit too involved with this discussion?

up: access - simply that whether a local school is sucessful or not, your child may not have access to it depending on your beliefs.

I think thats where a lot of posters on these threads are coming from

grimma and that's part of the OP too.

picklepud I think you have been marvellous in this discussion and agree with your summary of the situation.

I have generally warm feelings towards faith schools if you leave the admissions issue aside. But in densely populated areas where there are large numbers of children with learning, behavioural or language difficulties, it is quite obviously wrong that state funded VA schools in the middle of these communities should be using their admissions to filter out the children who need the most help, leaving the remaining community schools to deal with challenges they bring to a disproportionate degree. I am sure that is not the intention, but it is very definitely the effect.

Another thought. It's really difficult to be objective when dealing with things that have a perceived advantage to you or your children. That would sound hugely patronising to me if I were reading this as someone who has sent their child to a "successful" VA school so I should add that I know this from personal experience in vastly different areas to school admissions. It would be really interesting to hear from anyone who has found themselves in the dilemma and felt uncomfortable with it. I think this thread has proved itself to be largely supportive and non black and white about the personal dilemmas involved. (see OP - I know I would have had a huge dilemma and genuinely don't know what we'd have done). I also think, apart from my unfortunate late night comment last night for which I am sorry, you won't get shot down in flames (or if you do we'll jump to your support!)
I would agree that there are probably many invisible schools. Actually that's my idea of a Christian school doing it right. Everything I read in the Bible suggests that's the way Christians should live- quietly doing what they believe according to what Jesus taught. He was pretty inclusive I think. No prob with successful academic C of E school either - just how do you get there? Not by exclusive admissions. Going to get some real life now!

oh but actually Jesus got quite cross when He saw injustice. So hope I'm allowed to get het up about all this.

I think a lot of this overlooks the fact that what people judge a school's success largely on its league tables. What makes for good results is not the school or the teaching, its the pupils. So the only reason faith schools are "better" is because they take the "better" kids to begin with. If you made them non-selective then within a few years there would be no difference in standard between faith schools and anywhere else

and that would be a good thing i think. because religious criteria assume that people want a religious education for their child and that is difficult to believe if there are two va schools and only one on your list of choices

"Think it's rotten that people like MollyRoger don't have a decent school nearby"

If she's in an area like mine there are 'decent' schools nearby, in the sense that there are institutions staffed by well-trained and motivated teachers, usually with decent facilities. Sadly these schools are disproportionately full of the children selective schools don't want, (for whatever reason), which makes them not very easy places to teach or learn in.

That's just it though. Some people do want a religious education for their child. And I don't think anyone really has a problem with this unless the faith school happens to be better than the other schools (which it usually is)

"I'm sure there a hundreds of 'invisible' church schools that do not have people clamouring/lying to gain admittance because they serve a largely challenging and socially/economically disadvantaged catchment area, which is not very appealing to middle class parents."

This is what a church school should be doing. Where are these schools"

Actually there is one near us - a very under-subscribed Catholic secondary. I'd love to know how many parents who count themselves as devout would choose to send their child to this school if they had an offer of a place at a much more successful secular school instead

imgonna - its not just the pupils. our local primary has gone from satisfactory to outstanding in 3 years due to a change of head - and much the same with the middle school - it went from a very poor school with a bad reputation to one thats had 3 outstanding reports - again purely because the head changed. the pupils are from the same types of homes so nothings changed there.

"I'm sure there a hundreds of 'invisible' church schools that do not have people clamouring/lying to gain admittance because they serve a largely challenging and socially/economically disadvantaged catchment area, which is not very appealing to middle class parents."

My sister works in just such a school. When she joined it was on special measures. No complaints about admissions criteria there.

imgonna, does your sister's school actually have strict faith based criteria for people to get upset about? just interested because the under subscribed faith schools I know of, don't.